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RE: Civilisation ? - 5/4/2010 6:30:57 PM

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From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

So you are asking if a future of illiteracy, no doctors, and lots an lots of Dead babies, is viable or attractive.....

I vote No.

H'mmm I seem to think what you stated there, illiteracy, no doctors and dead babies we have already in some of the poorer parts of the world, but aside from the aid agencies and those that volunteer their time or money no one seems to really give a shit including people in these wealthy western countries. If they gave a shit they would be doing something about it. But alas, the problems continue now as they did in the past, nothing has changed for them, only for us.

That future, is fact, it is now and with us, if you see that as unnattractive and not viable, tell me, are you doing your utmost to solve the problems where they are in the poorer areas of the world ?

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(in reply to luckydawg)

RE: Civilisation ? - 5/4/2010 6:45:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Why don't you take that feud you have to emails?

It's silly.

Why don't you take your presumptious attitude and put it on hold.

This from the conclusion of the OP's cite.

It seems appropriate to conclude a brief look into the origins of civilization with a look at its seemingly inevitable fate: collapse. Domestication seems to lay the seeds for a history of perpetual collapse. It happened in Rome, Mesopotamia (the cradle of civilization), Egypt, Mesoamerica, the South- Western United States, the Ohio Valley and so on. Every single empire grows and grows till it becomes physically dependent upon others for its survival. The agriculture which lays the groundwork for the growth of empire degrades the land until necessities can only be met through vast networks of trade, taxation, and theft, and such an empire can only last so long.

It is pointed out and we all know it to be true that there is no non-hunter/gatherer society that has a lifespan in the same zip code with the hgs...Rome was a few hundred years the hgs are in the thousands of years.
The social constructs of the Mbuti have no prisons,no tax collectors, no cops, because they have as much use for them as they do for a bible or a slide rule. Their population is stable and does not abuse its environment's ability to supply them with all of thier needs. If the lack of modern medical facilities was a factor they would have died out thousands of years ago.
If they were literate what value would it have to them...they do not have cable so they dont need a tv guide.
Another thing they do not seem to have "unplanned" pregnancies and their spacing of pregnancies tends to be farther apart than non hgs.
Obviously they have been doing something right...they are still here.

(in reply to Icarys)

RE: Civilisation ? - 5/4/2010 7:23:52 PM

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quote:

Why don't you take your presumptious attitude and put it on hold.

I don't think I will but thanks anyway.

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RE: Civilisation ? - 5/4/2010 7:27:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Why don't you take your presumptious attitude and put it on hold.

I don't think I will but thanks anyway.

Would you care to contribute to the thread or are you here only in your capacity of thought police

(in reply to Icarys)

RE: Civilisation ? - 5/4/2010 7:38:25 PM

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I'm getting tired of the across-all-threads feud too. Now... back to this thread's topic please!

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: Civilisation ? - 5/5/2010 4:18:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Actually there are several closely related bands of Pygmies, Mbuti are just one of them.

While some folks like to pretend they live in a paradise the reality is quite different. For over 2000 years they have been economically entertwined with the farmers living outside thier forest. The idea that thier culture has not changed for 6000 years is nonsense. In addition they have an at birth life expectancy of 32 years. 20% of the children die before the first birthday, and 50% die before they turn 15. Like I (and the article from the OP said, lots of dead babies, the article says that is a good thing as it keeps the population down.). They have an almost 100% illiteracy rate. And for thousands of years have depended on Villagers to handle their criminal cases. They do indeed fight, and kill and rape. The idea they havbe now words for these are nonsense. More of the "Noble savage" bullshit that has been popular with Westerners for the past few generations. An aspect of cultural self loathing.

They are also completely unable to defend thier lands and way of life.

Is this just your opinion or have you some validation for your post?

What specifically do you want validated?

And you of course will provide evidence that they have no word for war rape or murder. Or that they live in an independantly sustainable society.

Or that they can defend thier lands and culture.

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RE: Civilisation ? - 5/5/2010 4:23:36 AM

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There was a TV documentary on a while ago about the pygmy tribes - pretty much supported what LD said. More detail than that I cant give - but that I might support his point in this, totally against the normal run of play on other points, hopefully lends it some credibility even absent cites.

E

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RE: Civilisation ? - 5/5/2010 4:31:19 AM

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"Rome was a few hundred years the hgs are in the thousands of years. "

I actually see it differently. The effects of Roman Civilization (which to a large degree was inherited) are manifest, and affect the world today. While 99.99% of hunter gatherer societies have collapsed, most thousands of years ago. Through Darwinistic struggle.

Not to argue the point in a lame way, but currently in the aftermath of the wars in the Congo, The Mbuti certainly have words for war rape and murder. Pygmies are considered magical by many african tribes, and have been hunted adn eaten for the past 15 years or so, by soldiers trying to gain thier forest magic.

I do understand that you meant pre modern Contact with Europeon Colonialism (which has been relevant to thier lives for well over a hundred years now), they didn't have words for these things.

My point is they are not strong enough to defend themselves.

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(in reply to luckydawg)

RE: Civilisation ? - 5/5/2010 4:54:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

So you are asking if a future of illiteracy, no doctors, and lots an lots of Dead babies, is viable or attractive.....

I vote No.

H'mmm I seem to think what you stated there, illiteracy, no doctors and dead babies we have already in some of the poorer parts of the world, but aside from the aid agencies and those that volunteer their time or money no one seems to really give a shit including people in these wealthy western countries. If they gave a shit they would be doing something about it. But alas, the problems continue now as they did in the past, nothing has changed for them, only for us.

That future, is fact, it is now and with us, if you see that as unnattractive and not viable, tell me, are you doing your utmost to solve the problems where they are in the poorer areas of the world ?

Anerin, what does any of that have to do with the thread? You asked for thoughts, I gave mine? why act so pissy?

Your article clearly calls for a zero % literacy. And Zero Doctors. Everyone is a Hunter/Gatherer. There is no specialization. There is no surplus created to feed a specialist. There is a high child mortality rate. I think it would be a rather crappy life. Every single time they come into conflict with others, they lose.

Why don't you go live (not to visit) in the rainforest(or in the Artic, I garuntee that not a single Innuit wants to get rid of thier rifles or snow machines), in a sustainable manner? Because for a short time, with gear, it is awesome. If it was forever with no metal, it would absolutly suck.

It does have some good points. They are egalitarian. They don't punch a clock. They get lots of fresh air and sunshine. But I feel the benefits are outweighed by the negatives.

< Message edited by luckydawg -- 5/5/2010 4:56:59 AM >

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(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Civilisation ? - 5/5/2010 5:01:20 AM

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Indeed LD. I had such life aspirations when I was much younger - but then it dawned on me that if living in the forest was so great, then how come everyone wasnt doing it?

That said, our way of life is not sustainable and one day will come crashing down around us. When that happens it will be survival of the fittest (that is most well adapted), just as in the forest; a harsh, short, brutish existence characterized by pain, suffering and injustice unimaginable to most in the west.

What we must strive for is a way of maintaining and perhaps extending our paradise without the damaging and self destructive aspects of it. Anyone who can come up with such a plan will be worshipped as a god for millennia.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to luckydawg)

RE: Civilisation ? - 5/5/2010 5:21:45 AM

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That's probably what Al Gore was hoping for, but it doesn't seem to be working that way for him so far, does it?

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(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: Civilisation ? - 5/5/2010 5:28:33 AM

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From: Pyroaquatica
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Indeed LD. I had such life aspirations when I was much younger - but then it dawned on me that if living in the forest was so great, then how come everyone wasnt doing it?

That said, our way of life is not sustainable and one day will come crashing down around us. When that happens it will be survival of the fittest (that is most well adapted), just as in the forest; a harsh, short, brutish existence characterized by pain, suffering and injustice unimaginable to most in the west.

What we must strive for is a way of maintaining and perhaps extending our paradise without the damaging and self destructive aspects of it. Anyone who can come up with such a plan will be worshipped as a god for millennia.

E

I am working on it.

--------

Soap is the best and worst thing humans make.

Why?

The lifespan of a human using soap is extended far past the age of 30.

Which leads to a population burst. In turn the same amount of resources are divided between more people.

As we grow old we have less DNA to go around. DNA begins to junkify and cells turn cancerous. Parts begin to fail.

My Great Grandfather is 90 years old and must feel miserable for he is in pain constantly.

I have grown quite fond of living in the forest away from people. I am also fond of this laptop. There must be a medium somewhere. :D

So those are my thoughts. Soap got us into this mess and it does not matter how much we scrub. (i still use soap. I am not a groady Toad.)

~Pyroaquatic

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As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.
-Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV.4.5

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: Civilisation ? - 5/5/2010 5:29:31 AM

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Its a difficult problem - the most difficult aspect probably being to roll back a century or so of social change whereby "I" has become supreme to "we".

E

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RE: Civilisation ? - 5/5/2010 5:46:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Its a difficult problem - the most difficult aspect probably being to roll back a century or so of social change whereby "I" has become supreme to "we".

E

The really hilarious thing about that is the number of libertarians claiming that the opposite has happened. Yeah, right guys.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: Civilisation ? - 5/5/2010 7:37:57 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Actually there are several closely related bands of Pygmies, Mbuti are just one of them.
There are several closely related bands of americans the Jonses are just one of them.
A quick read of Turnbull should give you a good understanding of their kinship structure.

While some folks like to pretend they live in a paradise the reality is quite different. For over 2000 years they have been economically entertwined with the farmers living outside thier forest.

A point not substantiated by Turnbull or Bahuchet.
The two most well known and documented authorities on this subject.

The idea that thier culture has not changed for 6000 years is nonsense.

Not according to the two reseachers cited.

In addition they have an at birth life expectancy of 32 years. 20% of the children die before the first birthday, and 50% die before they turn 15.

if life expectancy at birth is 32 and half die by 15 then the remaining fifty percent have a life expectancy of 64 add another 20% for the dead babies and now we are up to 76.

Like I (and the article from the OP said, lots of dead babies, the article says that is a good thing as it keeps the population down.).

They do seem to have a stable poulation unlike the non hgs.

They have an almost 100% illiteracy rate.

Without cable there is really no need to be able to read the tv guide

And for thousands of years have depended on Villagers to handle their criminal cases.

Not according to Turnbull.

They do indeed fight, and kill and rape. The idea they havbe now words for these are nonsense.

Not according to Turnbull

More of the "Noble savage" bullshit that has been popular with Westerners for the past few generations. An aspect of cultural self loathing.
I have not mentioned noble savage and you are the one who has brought up self-loathing

They are also completely unable to defend thier lands and way of life.

The Romans and Carthegenians were capable of defending their lands and way of life but they exist only in history books while the Mbuti are still here.
Perhaps martial power is not the be all end all of a culture

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/5/2010 7:59:45 AM >

(in reply to luckydawg)

RE: Civilisation ? - 5/5/2010 7:40:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

There was a TV documentary on a while ago about the pygmy tribes - pretty much supported what LD said. More detail than that I cant give - but that I might support his point in this, totally against the normal run of play on other points, hopefully lends it some credibility even absent cites.

E

Television can be an interesting form of entertainment

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/5/2010 8:01:07 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: Civilisation ? - 5/5/2010 7:44:07 AM

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quote:

If they gave a shit they would be doing something about it.

So what should they be doing about it?

and what are you doing about it?

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RE: Civilisation ? - 5/5/2010 7:46:56 AM

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quote:

It does have some good points. They are egalitarian. They don't punch a clock. They get lots of fresh air and sunshine. But I feel the benefits are outweighed by the negatives.

That being the case I would not recomend that you leave your day job.
Do you feel that those who would prefer to live that way should continue to do so unmolested?

(in reply to luckydawg)

RE: Civilisation ? - 5/5/2010 8:34:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

It does have some good points. They are egalitarian. They don't punch a clock. They get lots of fresh air and sunshine. But I feel the benefits are outweighed by the negatives.

That being the case I would not recomend that you leave your day job.
Do you feel that those who would prefer to live that way should continue to do so unmolested?

On what basis can a statement be made that they prefer their way of life, given that they're incapable of having tried any alternative lifestyles?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: Civilisation ? - 5/5/2010 8:44:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

It does have some good points. They are egalitarian. They don't punch a clock. They get lots of fresh air and sunshine. But I feel the benefits are outweighed by the negatives.

That being the case I would not recomend that you leave your day job.
Do you feel that those who would prefer to live that way should continue to do so unmolested?

On what basis can a statement be made that they prefer their way of life, given that they're incapable of having tried any alternative lifestyles?

Are you suggesting that people who have been around for 6000 years did not notice that there were farmers?
Are you suggesting that people who have been around for 6000 years did not notice that there were manufactures?
Or
Are you suggesting that they noticed but were genetically incapable of digesting that data?

(in reply to Moonhead)

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