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RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 7:00:35 AM   
slaveladyj


Posts: 161
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		You love the debate, that I can understand.

(in reply to youQadesh)
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RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 10:27:33 AM   
youQadesh


Posts: 84
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveladyj

You love the debate, that I can understand.


Yep. Glad you get it. I wouldn't want everyone to think I am crazy

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RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 10:42:00 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		Sounds like a Gorean with an attitude to me

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RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 10:57:47 AM   
acctonthelook


Posts: 245
Joined: 3/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: youQadesh
I will simply leave it up to you to decide why he said that we were, and diverted the conversation to another focus by referencing a question.  A question, might I add, that was asked out of the blue while I was simply offering up counterpoints.

 
I underline where I want to comment since no one has responded to it.
 
He clearly was not winning in turning your head towards his way of thinking.  You weren't a willing recruit.  In his mind you weren't submitting to his superiourity.
 
I also agree with slavejali, she's right when she speaks of differences, useful none the less on either side of the spectrum!

quote:

 original: TNstepsout: 
Seems a terrible waste of a superior male brain if you ask me. *shakes head*

 
You made me laugh so hard! 
 
Last night I had the same scenerio but not as drastic.  I just flat out told him I was not looking for that.  He ended the conversation.  Looks like he's single and still looking again. 
 
There's not a lot of women out there willing to get involved with a man who clearly "hates" your gender for whatever the reasons!  LOL  I'd love to know how many "Loves" he's had in his lifetime...probably none! LOL

(in reply to youQadesh)
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RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 11:07:09 AM   
Prunesquallor


Posts: 181
Joined: 10/12/2005
Status: offline 		Actually he sounded insane to me.

(in reply to acctonthelook)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 11:14:52 AM   
slaveladyj


Posts: 161
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		There is nothing I enjoy more than a good debate with someone.

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RE: This speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 11:15:16 AM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Humbly, or perhaps not so humbly, Arpig, I must disagree with what you have said. The ethos of Goreanism does not promote the idea that women are inferior to men.  It does however promote the concepts of natural selection and natural order.  Women , it proposes, in their most natural and simplistic states, will generally be found to be both physically weaker and  (and to some degree therefor) submissive to men, as well as acknowledging a difference in temperament and behavioral patterns between the sexes... However, another tenet of Goreanism also proposes that many men  (mainly Earth men, due to their societal conditioning...the books do work out of a sci-fi structure, of course) do not take up the reigns of natural order, and if they can not claim (not necessarily by He-man like means exclusively, either) what Norman labels their 'birthright', then there is every chance they will be subjugated by women who can prove themselves stronger.  That scenario however, shows the dominance of a woman as an aberration not of the woman, but of the man. 

Throughout the books there are both examples of men falling into this self imposed  subjugation (as well as the eventual 'righting' of the naturally dominant sex) as well as examples of women not only surpassing men in certain tasks (some which we would think to be assigned to men, in what most conceptualize as Gorean ethos) such as the slave luma who was the brilliant accountant and eventual estates-comptroller, for all intents and purposes, of Tarl/Bosk, as well as the Tatrix of Tharna, who was quite Dommie in her dominion, and of course, the rebellious and often quite ferocious jungle-trackers/female huntress-fighters, the Panther Girls. 

I will grant however, that it is not necessarily only a non-Gorean misconception that Gor is all about the inferiority of the female sex.  Many who call themselves Goreans, seem to miss several rather important concepts set forth by the creator of that ethos, as stated above (probably as they did not take the time to read all the books).

< Message edited by puella -- 4/7/2006 11:26:54 AM >

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RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 11:23:40 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		There are signs all over the zoo which ask one not to feed the animals. Trying to deal with a fundie (fundamentalist) doesn't work anymore than trying to reason with a drunk. If you are trying to make a fundie appear stupid, there is no need. To many they already appear quite retarded in their thinking. If the point of debate is to 'win,' and from my many years on the debate team, that was, indeed the point, realize when you battle a fundie you are in a no-win situation and the best thing to do is to step away and leave them to argue their one handed ways by themselves. Unreasonable patterns, manipulation of sources and out right lies are what fundies bring to the table. As soon as you make a valid point, they will twist it, turn it, ignore it or try to put the onus on you even if they must use complete fantasy to do so. It's quite common, easy to spot and why one would attempt to bring a fundie more fresh meat is beyond me.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to youQadesh)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: This speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 11:44:29 AM   
acctonthelook


Posts: 245
Joined: 3/28/2006
Status: offline 		puella, i will tell you upfront i don't have a clue about the Gorean dynamic, but i would love to understand what you're trying to say.  Can you remember there are a few of us who may be clueless and try to speak in terms we all can understand. 
 
maybe it's just me being "dumb" again but i didn't understand a word of what you were trying to convey.  sorry and really no offense, i just really didn't get any of it.

(in reply to puella)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 12:22:03 PM   
youQadesh


Posts: 84
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

There are signs all over the zoo which ask one not to feed the animals. Trying to deal with a fundie (fundamentalist) doesn't work anymore than trying to reason with a drunk. If you are trying to make a fundie appear stupid, there is no need. To many they already appear quite retarded in their thinking. If the point of debate is to 'win,' and from my many years on the debate team, that was, indeed the point, realize when you battle a fundie you are in a no-win situation and the best thing to do is to step away and leave them to argue their one handed ways by themselves. Unreasonable patterns, manipulation of sources and out right lies are what fundies bring to the table. As soon as you make a valid point, they will twist it, turn it, ignore it or try to put the onus on you even if they must use complete fantasy to do so. It's quite common, easy to spot and why one would attempt to bring a fundie more fresh meat is beyond me.

Celeste



Who's trying to "bring a fundie fresh meet?"

I fully realize I could never win a debate with him, that much is obvious to me. Debate with him is interesting and desireable to me for many reasons, but not because I think I will win, it is because I enjoy looking at the convuluted way in which people can develope their beliefs. Psychology is one of my deep seeded interests.

I look forward to building a sort of rapport with him so I can learn about how it is he came to this view point. That may never happen, but its the journey that is most to interest to me. And if I ever attempt to go further with my psychology education then I will eventually have to deal with someone like him in person.



(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: This speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 12:52:17 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Oh.. sorry sure...


Basically, I was just saying that the idea, which is very often mis-conceptualized by those outside of the Gorean arena,  that .. well, that Goreans are Mysoginists... is not really a tenet of the 'Gorean Set of Ideas'... so to speak (though of course, some may well be.. as some who are not Gorean, may well be).  They believe that men and women are different, and that in most cases, men are usually stronger physically than women, which allows, in the most bare bones of situations,  for the concept of Natural Order.. which just says that the female of the species, in most, though not all of nature, is submissive to the male... not better not worse, just different and submissive.

Is that any clearer? ... probably not, sorry, everything seems so much more lucid in the confines of my own warped mind... hehe

< Message edited by puella -- 4/7/2006 1:26:19 PM >

(in reply to youQadesh)
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RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 1:04:15 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:



Who's trying to "bring a fundie fresh meet?"


quote:

http://alt.com/blog/NYCKnowYourself/

I suggest reading it, making an account if you don't already have one, and challenge his views. 


quote:

I fully realize I could never win a debate with him, that much is obvious to me.


I think your words speak for themselves. He had no voice here until you gave him one. No one here had access to the lions den until you provided it. You know that it is a no-win situation. To debate implies one has the chance of viewing things from the other side. There is no chance for that with a fundie. They are entrenched in their positions. It is merely confrontation. The fact that you suggest others go there and 'challenge' his views rather than form their own conclusions, show that you, too, are entrenched in your view. Hence, I call it like I see it. Throwing fresh meat to the fundie.

quote:

Debate with him is interesting and desireable to me for many reasons, but not because I think I will win, it is because I enjoy looking at the convuluted way in which people can develope their beliefs. Psychology is one of my deep seeded interests.

I look forward to building a sort of rapport with him so I can learn about how it is he came to this view point. That may never happen, but its the journey that is most to interest to me. And if I ever attempt to go further with my psychology education then I will eventually have to deal with someone like him in person.


I really, truly, could not care less.

Celeste





_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to youQadesh)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 1:35:29 PM   
youQadesh


Posts: 84
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


I think your words speak for themselves. He had no voice here until you gave him one. No one here had access to the lions den until you provided it. You know that it is a no-win situation. To debate implies one has the chance of viewing things from the other side. There is no chance for that with a fundie. They are entrenched in their positions. It is merely confrontation. The fact that you suggest others go there and 'challenge' his views rather than form their own conclusions, show that you, too, are entrenched in your view. Hence, I call it like I see it. Throwing fresh meat to the fundie.

quote:

Debate with him is interesting and desireable to me for many reasons, but not because I think I will win, it is because I enjoy looking at the convuluted way in which people can develope their beliefs. Psychology is one of my deep seeded interests.

I look forward to building a sort of rapport with him so I can learn about how it is he came to this view point. That may never happen, but its the journey that is most to interest to me. And if I ever attempt to go further with my psychology education then I will eventually have to deal with someone like him in person.


I really, truly, could not care less.

Celeste






Well, I can't knock you for calling it like you see it. I don't see anything much wrong with offering his opinions for people to discuss. His views are a reality in this lifestyle and worth discussing.

But your right that i didn't consider some people here might be vonerable to him through connecting them with his blog, so I am going to delete that link, and hope noone bought into his bs. Thanks for pointing that out.

and I do beleive that debating is about seeing things from the other side. I don't agree that this can't be done with a fundie. There is a difference between seeing where a fundie comes from and beleiving in it. It is completely possible to understand where extremists get their ideas from, some people just don't have an interest in doing it, I do.

-M

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 1:40:30 PM   
youQadesh


Posts: 84
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: youQadesh


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


I think your words speak for themselves. He had no voice here until you gave him one. No one here had access to the lions den until you provided it. You know that it is a no-win situation. To debate implies one has the chance of viewing things from the other side. There is no chance for that with a fundie. They are entrenched in their positions. It is merely confrontation. The fact that you suggest others go there and 'challenge' his views rather than form their own conclusions, show that you, too, are entrenched in your view. Hence, I call it like I see it. Throwing fresh meat to the fundie.

quote:

Debate with him is interesting and desireable to me for many reasons, but not because I think I will win, it is because I enjoy looking at the convuluted way in which people can develope their beliefs. Psychology is one of my deep seeded interests.

I look forward to building a sort of rapport with him so I can learn about how it is he came to this view point. That may never happen, but its the journey that is most to interest to me. And if I ever attempt to go further with my psychology education then I will eventually have to deal with someone like him in person.


I really, truly, could not care less.

Celeste






Well, I can't knock you for calling it like you see it. I don't see anything much wrong with offering his opinions for people to discuss. His views are a reality in this lifestyle and worth discussing.

Your right that i didn't consider some people here might be vonerable to him through connecting them with his blog, so I am going to try to figure out if I can get a moderator to delete that link, and hope noone bought into his bs. Thanks for pointing that out.

and I do beleive that debating is about seeing things from the other side. I don't agree that this can't be done with a fundie. There is a difference between seeing where a fundie comes from and beleiving in it. It is completely possible to understand where extremists get their ideas from, some people just don't have an interest in doing it, I do.

-M



edit: changed that "I would edit the post" with the bog link on it, to "I would ask a moderator to delete it" because it is too late to edit myself.

(in reply to youQadesh)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 1:45:52 PM   
wytchywoman


Posts: 510
Joined: 2/27/2006
From: Southeastern Michigan
Status: offline 		Damn. Please don't ask us to go to other sites and challenge people. We have enough to keep up with here. 

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RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 2:24:50 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:



and I do beleive that debating is about seeing things from the other side. I don't agree that this can't be done with a fundie. There is a difference between seeing where a fundie comes from and beleiving in it.


You've missed the point. I have no doubt that you can debate, he cannot. He can only confront. That's what a fundie does. You may very well be able to see his point of view. He is incapable of seeing yours, hence, it's a no-win situation.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to youQadesh)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 7:21:14 PM   
slaveladyj


Posts: 161
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		Don't you find it the least bit challenging to enter into a debate with someone with such outdated motions of the world?

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 7:50:55 PM   
youQadesh


Posts: 84
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wytchywoman

Damn. Please don't ask us to go to other sites and challenge people. We have enough to keep up with here. 


I know.  What was I thinking!?

(in reply to wytchywoman)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 7:56:11 PM   
youQadesh


Posts: 84
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
You've missed the point. I have no doubt that you can debate, he cannot. He can only confront. That's what a fundie does. You may very well be able to see his point of view. He is incapable of seeing yours, hence, it's a no-win situation.

Celeste


Oh, your right I did miss your point.  I agree with you...he will never see my point of view, but I would still want to talk to him.  Its just so interesting to try to see how it is he came about believing those ideas.  So I guess you could say its not the debate that keeps me wanting to converse with him, but my interest in learning about his views and how he got there.  Even still though, it is interesting to see how exactly he avoids addressing valid counterpoints.  In that way there is still an element of debate.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
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RE: This1 speaks 4 itself! - 4/7/2006 8:00:24 PM   
youQadesh


Posts: 84
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveladyj

Don't you find it the least bit challenging to enter into a debate with someone with such outdated motions of the world?


Certainly I do, but I just bite the bullet, remind myself he will never change his mind, and continue feeding my curiosity. 

(in reply to slaveladyj)
Profile   Post #: 40
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