RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (Full Version)

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Jeffff -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/10/2010 11:10:30 AM)

It doesn't Matter. I have two friends who are both lawyers and know of my.... proclivities.

As I posted eariler, pretty much everything we do is ilegal pretty much everywhere.

I tie a woman up and fuck her?.... sexual assault... she was bound and could not escape.

I bruise a womans ass with a "weapon" , it's assault.

Theses are criminal charges and they do not need someone to sign a complaint.

While the chances of being prosecuted may be slim indeed, they do exist.




CarrieO -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/10/2010 11:17:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

it seems that Dommes are more and more apprehensive about their legal standing in relation to sub treatment.

But my question is this , why would a Domme be interested in getting legal advice in relation to their trade in training subbies.


I would think if a woman decided to become a prodomme, common sense would dictate that they would want to be aware of any laws that affect them and the running of their business.  That would be sensible business practices.

If, on the other hand, a woman decides to have a personal relationship, and therefore not relating wiitwd to a "trade", with a partner that identifies as submissive, I not sure how this would be of any concern except in cases of what could be seen as domestic violence. 

Please refer to this post I made on the thread titled :the law"  http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2996633
In it you will find a link for the Domestic Violence Policies for each state in the U.S. as of 2007.
I'm not sure of the laws and protocol for other countries.

As I said in the above mentioned thread, it's becasue of these laws and protocols that I see bdsm as "risk aware" for everyone involved.

Just my [sm=2cents.gif]




laurell3 -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/10/2010 12:15:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

It doesn't Matter. I have two friends who are both lawyers and know of my.... proclivities.

As I posted eariler, pretty much everything we do is ilegal pretty much everywhere.

I tie a woman up and fuck her?.... sexual assault... she was bound and could not escape.

I bruise a womans ass with a "weapon" , it's assault.

Theses are criminal charges and they do not need someone to sign a complaint.

While the chances of being prosecuted may be slim indeed, they do exist.



The anteater is correct and I'm somewhat suprised at the number of postings that feel consent negates criminal liability. It doesn't, with the exception of a few states that have a consentual exception for MISDEMEANOR assaults. (Keep in mind, using a weapon of any type isn't a mismdemeanor in the vast majority of the US). Simply put, you cannot consent to an assault in most states, any action that causes bodily injury or threatens another in a menacing manner can be an assault. Whether they will be prosecuted or not is a toss up, but everyone should be damn certain the person they are playing with is on the same page and not some loon that could get authorities involved should the relationship go sour (this I have seen many times).




slavekal -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/10/2010 5:12:07 PM)

You are really naive...in a good way.  You believe that the way things SHOULD be are the way they are.  They are not.  There are still many unjust laws on the books regarding so called vices.   Drugs, prostitution, pro Domming, and other victimless "crimes" are still illegal in many places.




VaguelyCurious -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/10/2010 5:16:30 PM)

FR

A history lesson, Kevin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Spanner

Although the stupidity of the questions you keep asking is starting to make me think you're a troll.




Andalusite -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/10/2010 6:09:08 PM)

It's possible that the laws in Ireland, where kevin is, are different from here in the US, and they do vary a bit from one state to another. In general, though, consent or signing a liability release does not provide legal protection for the Dominant or Top, no matter how much people might wish otherwise.




BlaiddDrwg -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/10/2010 6:21:00 PM)

In North Carolina, it is illegal to have intercourse in any position other than missionary. In Florida, it's illegal to co-habitate with a non-blood relative member of the opposite sex, without engaging in intercourse with that person; and, it's also illegal to have intercourse with anyone other than your legal spouse. Some states allow marriage as early as age 14, without parental consent.

With things like this still gathering dust in law books, is it any surprise that pretty much everything involved with WIITWD is illegal?




thatsub -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/10/2010 8:16:20 PM)

Keep in mind that not all contracts and liability disclaimers are enforceable. When 911 call is made, police will want to check out your house to make sure everyone is OK and when they see someone with bruises "bdsm excuse" will not work - someone is going to jail for a night.




VaguelyCurious -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/11/2010 12:49:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlaiddDrwg

With things like this still gathering dust in law books, is it any surprise that pretty much everything involved with WIITWD is illegal?
The difference being that none of those laws are enforced. People have been imprisoned in the UK for SM activities far more recently than any 14 year olds have got hitched...




Vendaval -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/11/2010 1:06:53 AM)

Fast Reply -

See also the San Diego Six and Club X.



http://www.madoc.us/sd6.shtml






DMFParadox -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/11/2010 1:48:12 AM)

Actually, I'm glad someone is asking this particular stupid question. Because the real question should be, is it possible, in this legal climate, to make a stab at gaining some legal protections for BDSM?




lobodomslavery -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/11/2010 3:29:59 AM)

Thats what i was really driving at but couldnt think of it
kevin




LadyEllen -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/11/2010 4:33:36 AM)

As Andalusite and VC have pointed out Kevin, one cannot consent to an offence and its not a great deal different with "offences against the person" ("OAPA" - a British Act that is likely inherited in Irish law).

One can consent to assault - which doesnt involve any actual contact but the "immediate apprehension of violence", that is that one believes that violence will  be inflicted because of the conduct of another.

One can consent to battery - which doesnt involve anything more than actual contact. Battery is often charged alongside assault - leading to the "hilarious" chip shop name "A Salt & B Attery". It has to be possible to consent to assault and to battery since otherwise these offences would occur so often, (jostling in a crowded street for instance), that it would be unworkable - on a crowded street the consent is implied since any reasonable person can acknowledge the risk and choose whether or not to enter the crowd.

One cannot consent to any offence against the person that exceeds these levels - the next one, (again probably inherited in Irish law) is assault occasioning actual bodily harm, "ABH", which concerns superficial injuries such as cuts, bruises, abrasions - the sort of thing that doesnt need treatment and which is the bread and butter of bdsm. Given implied consent for being jostled in a crowded street, it may seem strange that no implied consent is taken to be in place when one enters into bdsm.

The guide by which things are excepted from criminality, as for instance sport, battle reenactment, medical and surgical treatment and tattooing have been excepted, is the public interest and morality. So in the Spanner case (see VC's post) and in the appeal the judgment was that the law should not protect sado-masochistic activities since these are not in the public interest and go against the prevailing moral consensus.

The same kind of thinking went into the criminalisation of homosexuality and the repeal by judges (not Parliament) quite recently that a husband could not rape his wife since she is his property. The law slowly but eventually changes as the prevailing moral consensus and public interest changes - which isnt to say that anyone ought to put it to the test any time soon if at all, but is to say that as bdsm goes more mainstream we might eventually expect change.

Even so I would expect that the vast majority of instances where police get involved are handled with discretion, that is to say that no charges are brought or even arrests made, but a quiet word is had. Of those instances where there are arrests I would expect few are ever charged, and of those charged I would expect few to proceed to anything more than a caution.

Only those instances where the injuries are substantial - well past the point of ABH, as in the Spanner case, are likely to ever see trial. And when it comes to pro-dommes I would expect prosecution to be far more likely for the commercial aspects of the service than the nature of the service itself.

E




DMFParadox -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/11/2010 4:26:10 PM)

Ok LadyEllen, so if I'm reading you right it sounds like there's some possibility in Britain that getting legal protection for BDSM is possible, with minor alteration - but that protection does not currently exist.

What about here in the U.S.? Here in Florida, the outlook of being noticed by anyone in law enforcement seems very bleak.




DMFParadox -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/11/2010 4:32:25 PM)

By "gaining legal protection", by the way, I mean getting laws on the books that legalize some aspects of BDSM and consensual assault. I don't mean getting a good lawyer to get you off if you're already up on charges - we already know that's possible. Hell, O.J. got away with murder. Allegedly.




LadyEllen -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/12/2010 4:58:38 AM)

No DMF - what I'm saying is that the approach of judges eventually changes according to the prevailing majority consensus of what should and should not be criminalised. I personally doubt that any body that originates laws will ever legalise bdsm, but judges may alter how it is dealt with in the matter of consent by way of precedent so that it joins the set of activities where consent is possible. This is currently at a dead end for the immediate future given the outcome of Spanner but new precedent can be set given the right circumstances.

Alongside that I'm saying that I expect a great deal of discretion is exercised at all stages before any trial is set such that only the more extreme instances would ever get that far - as "bdsm cases" at least. This is a problem in the case of setting new precedent of course because if a case is not heard in the higher courts then no new precedent can be set. We would need a great many prosecutions of everyday bdsm cases to have a chance of such a new precedent, and no one wants that I expect, including those charged with detecting, investigating and bringing to trial such cases, simply because they have better things to do with their time.

As things stand only the more extreme cases are going to go through the full process - and in those cases it will be more difficult because of the more serious nature of the offences to see Spanner overturned and more difficult because Spanner involved gay men to see it distinguished for reasons of discrimination, but it is possible that eventually, circumstances permitting a new approach will be taken.

E




BoiJen -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/12/2010 8:45:30 AM)

The NCSF says that trying to get legal protections for what we do on the books isn't possible at all right now in the U.S. No matter how much we may want it, we've simply not got enough in numbers or money to get what we want here. Let's not talk about the logistics of having to define the difference legally speaking between Sm activities and domestic violence and how many abusers may choose to start using..."Buts she consented at the time and I'm just kinky!" as a defense.

boi




DMFParadox -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/12/2010 5:43:16 PM)

The less extreme cases can still wreck your day, especially if you're in a situation where getting taken to county for a few weeks for bruises on your girlfriend/boyfriend means the end of your job, family trouble, etc., etc. Ultimately it's those that concern me most, not the high-publicity busts of dominatrix suites.

But hey, it's occurred to me - if anyone really wants a legal, intense experience in being bound and forced to submit, the military's got a website AND a toll free number. ^_^




DMFParadox -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/12/2010 5:56:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

The NCSF says that trying to get legal protections for what we do on the books isn't possible at all right now in the U.S. No matter how much we may want it, we've simply not got enough in numbers or money to get what we want here. Let's not talk about the logistics of having to define the difference legally speaking between Sm activities and domestic violence and how many abusers may choose to start using..."Buts she consented at the time and I'm just kinky!" as a defense.

boi



Yeah, that's pretty much my read on the situation. I'd say it's depressing, but I don't feel too put out; I'd rather that abuse victims continued to have the legal resources they have than that they didn't, and that means the onus is on us D's to be very goddamned careful with who and how we play.

Any scenario I can think up, of legal contracts for submission to dominant acts or whatever, brings up a hairy host of exploits on it. From both sides of the collar. Forcing people to sign after the fact, or wives that are desperate and abused not being able to escape.

That said, there's got to be some kind of line, that allows stunt men, performers, and other situations where restraint and spanking that ass is legal. It'd be fun to learn what those situations are. Some kind of codified FAQ that says, "You can go up to here, and do this crazy shit perfectly legally. Case law example: Jim vs. John. but if you go here then these are the legal penalties. And 1 out of every X cases goes to trial. Last case law example is Joe vs. Smith." Anybody know anything like that strictly for BDSM situations?

Edit: checking out the NCSF website right now.




DMFParadox -> RE: Why would Dommes be interested in getting legal advice on their trade? (5/12/2010 6:10:05 PM)

Ok, the NCSF website has a lot of resources. Thanks, boi, that is a killer reference.
For anybody who wants to check it out, the website is http://www.ncsfreedom.org/ . I might be late on that bus, but I'm sure there are others still looking for it.




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