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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/12/2010 10:58:45 PM   
thompsonx


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I read this awhile ago, if it is an urban legend believe me I'll be happy and relieved to hear it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,208577,00.html


The link says the "zogby poll" did this and that.
They took a poll but then extrapolated the poll to be all americans.
Obviously they did not take the poll outside of a political science class at ucla.

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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/13/2010 1:38:03 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


I read this awhile ago, if it is an urban legend believe me I'll be happy and relieved to hear it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,208577,00.html


The link says the "zogby poll" did this and that.
They took a poll but then extrapolated the poll to be all americans.
Obviously they did not take the poll outside of a political science class at ucla.


I'm not sure who Larry, Curly, and Moe are.

I thought the Three Stooges were Sean, Bill, and Neil.



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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/13/2010 1:49:29 AM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

The link says the "zogby poll" did this and that.
They took a poll but then extrapolated the poll to be all americans.
Obviously they did not take the poll outside of a political science class at ucla.


Most polls are based on a representative sample.

And no the poll didn't say "2 out of 5 UCLA PoliSci students..."

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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/13/2010 8:20:15 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

The link says the "zogby poll" did this and that.
They took a poll but then extrapolated the poll to be all americans.
Obviously they did not take the poll outside of a political science class at ucla.


Most polls are based on a representative sample.
No...most polls are based on the demographic that will support the polsters position.

And no the poll didn't say "2 out of 5 UCLA PoliSci students..."


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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/13/2010 5:08:25 PM   
luckydawg


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Status: offline 		No, actually scientificaly sampled National Polls, are always within a few points of each other regardless of the Bias of the Pollster. (It does have to be an apple to apple comparison)

As every thinking person understands.

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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/13/2010 6:06:27 PM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		I am opposed to a democracy.

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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/13/2010 7:27:48 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I am opposed to a democracy.


Why?

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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/13/2010 8:46:27 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

No, actually scientificaly sampled National Polls, are always within a few points of each other regardless of the Bias of the Pollster. (It does have to be an apple to apple comparison)

As every thinking person understands.



The poll consisted of 1213 people.
Are you sure that every thinking person will believe that the answers of 1213 people accurately represent the knowledge of more than 300 million people to within a few percentage points?

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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/13/2010 8:50:20 PM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		Fair and balanced – what else can you expect from people with today’s journalism - it's all meaningless if you don't know.

YouTube - Rupert Murdoch just bought the Wall Street Journal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf8Gi3SwfxY&feature=related


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I'm having serious issues with the concept of democracy. What happens to rule by the people when the people are unfit to rule? Are democratically elected politicians supposed to lead the people, or are they supposed to represent the will of the people?

After the Revolution, France was a disaster. Napoleon Bonaparte stabilized it. He was a tyrant...and probably the best thing that could have happened to France at that time.

I hate to say this, because it makes me sound like an elitist, but looking at what's happening in the US, I wonder whether the people deserve a democracy. I don't mean people with unpopular opinions, I think they should always have a right to vote their conscience, but rather people who say things like "Keep your government hands off my Medicare" - I read somewhere that only 2 out of 5 Americans can name the three branches of federal government.

That means the majority of Americans are able to vote for something they are wholly unqualified to make decisions about. And that bothers me.

I don't know where I'm going with this post, I just want to get a bit of feedback. I'm not advocating for tyranny, I just wonder, what justification IS there for democracy, when the people aren't living up to their part of the bargain?


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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/13/2010 9:36:40 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I'm not going to argue the relative difficulties of training as a doctor or mechanic. I'll just say that there is a difference between having the ability to learn a task and having learned it, and anyway, back to my OP, how can you expect the average to be able to serve as President when the majority of the country is unable to name the 3 branches of Federal government?



I'm not convinced that your facts are even right there.

You seem to pick and choose urban legends to construct the image of 'the people' that best fits your dismissal.


I read this awhile ago, if it is an urban legend believe me I'll be happy and relieved to hear it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,208577,00.html


....

You watch Fox News?


....



....

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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/13/2010 10:03:45 PM   
Elisabella


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Status: offline 		No, I read it in one of those pop political books a couple years ago, that's the site that came up when I searched for the study online.

I don't actually watch any TV news, I don't have a TV, and I cbf downloading TV news when text based is more informative as well as hyperlinked.

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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/14/2010 6:30:11 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
Of course I am not saying that everyone needs to be the same. I think I have gone over it quite enough and I don't think there is anyway for you to see where I am coming from.

No the reason that he has another Nurse or Nurse Practioner doing those tasks like blood pressure and taking symptoms and writing diagnosis on your chart is because the amount of Doctors are limited by how many the AMA allows the Med schools to invite. It is a set number. There isn't an open enrollment that gives everyone that is above a 3.75/gpa on a definite program of study to enter into Med School. Guess the next quesstion is why? And that would lead you to money. Which should be the last motivator for someone to want to help keep another human in good health. I am sure you'd agree with that.


I could not find anything to support this claim.  What I found was this:  http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-03-02-doctor-shortage_x.htm

"Congress controls the supply of physicians by how much federal funding it provides for medical residencies — the graduate training required of all doctors."

"In 1997, to save money and prevent a doctor glut, Congress capped the number of residents that Medicare will pay for at about 80,000 a year. Another 20,000 residents are financed by the Veterans Administration and Medicaid, the state-federal health care program for the poor. Teaching hospitals pay for a small number of residents without government assistance. "

The AMA doesn't seem to have a say in how many students can study medicine or how many licenses a state can issue.
I would welcome the source for your information.



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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/14/2010 9:23:52 AM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		Who is the accrediting body for med schools?

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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/14/2010 9:31:52 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Who is the accrediting body for med schools?

http://www.medicalschools.com/medical-school-accreditation.html

The Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) is most influential accrediting body for medical education in the U.S. The U.S. Department of Education (USDE) considers the LCME to be the only authority for accrediting programs leading to an MD degree. As well, a student must have attended a LCME accredited school to take the United States Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE).
 
And
http://www.aamc.org/medicalschools.htm
Liaison Committee on Medical Education
The Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) is the nationally recognized accrediting authority for medical education programs leading to the M.D. degree in U.S. and Canadian medical schools.


So.....I'm guesing the LCME is the acrcreding body for med schools.   

< Message edited by eyesopened -- 5/14/2010 9:35:50 AM >

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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/14/2010 9:41:07 AM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		The cite you put up from usa today was pretty informative. The article pointed out that it has been some 25 years since a med school has been built in this country. They also pointed out that the people responsible for controling the number of doctors have repeatedly said that there is a glut of doctors. Their claim of ten years to train a doctor seemed a little high to me.
You are in the field bring me up to speed here I thought med school was two years of academics and two years of ojt followed by two years of paid internship in the $50,000 per year range and then two years as a resident with pay in the $100,000 range.
Looking for help here from someone who is closer to the job than me.

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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/14/2010 9:48:09 AM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		It looks like, from the site map and from browsing through it that the LCME is a committee of the AMA. That would seem to indicate that the AMA is the accrediting body for med schools...I could not find anything that used those exact words but if the LCME is an instrument of the AMA then it would follow that the AMA is ultimately the accrediting body.

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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/14/2010 10:10:07 AM   
eyesopened


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Status: offline 		I am not in the medical field.  I have never claimed to be in the medical field.  Sorry if you got that impression.

The LCME is sponsored by the Association of American Medical Colleges and the American Medical Association.

I take sponsor to mean the AAMC and the AMA provides some resources.  Like AARP provides some resources to safe driving programs for senior citizens but does not regulate how many old people have licenses.

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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/14/2010 10:22:17 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
I am opposed to a democracy.

Why?

It is too complicated, too inefficient, too susceptible to infiltration and manipulation, too prone to compromise resulting in the mediocre.

Democracy has been instituted both as a means to avoid conflict between high IQ rulers and to pool their abysmal intellectual resources. These days politicians use democracy to avoid conflict between social classes.

It takes only one person with a bit of comprehension and creativity, though, to solve any problem optimally.

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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/14/2010 2:32:06 PM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
You are in the field bring me up to speed here I thought med school was two years of academics and two years of ojt followed by two years of paid internship in the $50,000 per year range and then two years as a resident with pay in the $100,000 range.


http://www.mommd.com/toughdecision.shtml
Usually four years of undergarduate study,  four years of medical school, then 3-6 years of residency (depending on your specialty). That's an average of twelve years from starting college to practicing medicine.

http://mdsalaries.blogspot.com/2005/10/residency-salaries.html

http://gradschool.about.com/od/medicalschool/f/residency.htm
During residency, you are paid for your hard work. The average salary for a first year resident (intern) is in the range of $35,000 with increases each year of approximately $1,500.

During residency a doctor will probably work 60-80 hours a week.  If one gets paid $40k a year and works 80 hrs a week it's less than $10/hr and a lot of student loans may already be due.  It's not a cushy life.  I've known people who switched fro becoming a doctor to becoming a dentist just because the pay and hours are better.

This is really off topic.  I really only wanted to point out originally that the AMA does not have a cap on how many people can become doctors.


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RE: Democracy y/n? - 5/15/2010 7:05:27 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

I am not in the medical field. I have never claimed to be in the medical field. Sorry if you got that impression.


I am sorry but for the longest time I have thought you were a nurse...my mistake.

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Profile   Post #: 120
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