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RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 12:07:26 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

About changing the worldview and opinions and value systems I would like to copy a little article from wikipedia:
So Carol isn't free. Any other amazingly insightful pearls of wisdom you wish to share with us that we couldn't notice on our own?


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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 12:07:45 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		He's pulled his profile but his thinking reminds me of my youngest, all black and white, with an unfortunate amount of magical thinking still in existence. He's just 17. I can't imagine the op is much older. But I will challenge the op, ten years ago you may have held the belief that girls were icky and couldn't imagine kissing one. Have you changed? Do you hold new ideas that totally contradict those ideas?

Wait till you're twice as old as you are now and I can promise you that you will cringe in embarrassment at your one true way beliefs of now.


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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 12:08:34 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		OK, once again I am going to try to give serious answers to your questions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
You turned someone who didn't even want to be a slave into a slave. You changed the worldview and the hardwiring of a woman for 180°. How is this even possible?

It is possible because of what Carol actually is. Within her is a very strong drive to be perfect for the man she loves coupled with a highly malleable personality. It's not that Carol has no boundaries. It's just her boundaries are very different than yours or mine. I ran into one of those hard limits quite abruptly just recently when I tried to get her to stop being my slave. The problem was, I still wanted a slave. She knew that. So in her mind, that translated to, "Stop trying to be as perfect as you can be for the man you love." She had no trouble saying quite assertively "No." I effectively gave her a command which actually DID run against her nature. I gave that command repeatedly, forcefully, and with all the leadership skills I could muster over a period of 5 days. It was rejected flat out.

quote:

If she never consented to become a slave, then how is this different from outright manipulation and abuse?

One at a time. It is not at all different than manipulation. I will point out though that the word "manipulation" typically implies some sort of covert action. There is nothing covert going on between she and I. She is full well aware of the goals and works aggressively to help implement them. But those goals were set by my desires, not hers. She'd probably really like it if I wasn't so grooving on this whole "total obedience" thing. It'd make her life a lot simpler. But that's not how it is and so she does what she must according to her own nature. We already talked about abuse in a previous comment.

quote:

Also, do you consider yourself to be all-knowing and all-wise so that your worldview is always superior to Carol's? Or you think that you are WAY more intelligent than she is?

I do not consider myself either all-wise or all-knowing. In fact, the danger I previously alluded to in my previous comments is the danger of the law of unintended consequence. But that is a danger that I accept and she does because I do. Carol and I are intelligent in different ways. If you mean intelligence as measured by IQ (a measurement I think is idiotic), then yes, I am more intelligent than her. What I can tell you is that I greatly value her insight, wisdom, and input and it almost always is a substantive part of what shapes my end decisions.

quote:

So whatever you think is wrong in her likes, dislikes, tastes, attitudes, opinions, you can change just like that, even without her consent?

yes. Good thing for her that she chose wisely when she chose a life partner, eh?

If you really want to understand this, I highly encourage you to go to find Star Trek, The Next Generation, Season 5, Episode 21 - "The Perfect Mate". (as a hint, it's available in pieces on youtube last I checked) Yeah yeah, it's a fictional story, but it is also the best portrayal of Carol and I that I've ever run across. Ask yourself how much "consent" Kamala had. The show explores that specific thing in great detail.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to SocratesNot)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 12:12:08 PM   
SocratesNot


Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline 		I'm 22. You were pretty close. Maybe I'll change, who knows. I changed my opinions many times and nothing prevents me from changing my opinion again. 

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 12:28:15 PM   
SocratesNot


Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

I ran into one of those hard limits quite abruptly just recently when I tried to get her to stop being my slave. The problem was, I still wanted a slave. She knew that. So in her mind, that translated to, "Stop trying to be as perfect as you can be for the man you love." She had no trouble saying quite assertively "No." I effectively gave her a command which actually DID run against her nature. I gave that command repeatedly, forcefully, and with all the leadership skills I could muster over a period of 5 days. It was rejected flat out.


I am 110% sure if you REALLY wanted to get her to stop being your slave, you would succeed.
But you admited it, you still wanted her to be your slave - or in your words -
quote:

The problem was, I still wanted a slave. She knew that.
.

Actually, it seems that there are no hard limits for Carol.
However, I am beginning to understand your relationship with Carol and why it works. I think that Carol is a type of person who is really a little challenged in some ways, so her life is actually WAY better if someone else is in charge of it, not she herself. I can imagine your relationship with Carol to be more or less the same as relationship of a parent to a 10-year-old child.

Also, I am going to watch this Star Trek episode and I will tell you what I think as soon as I watch it!

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 12:33:31 PM   
SocratesNot


Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline 		What is even more surprising I am beginning to think that if I were in your place, I would behave exactly the way you behave to Carol, but I think that I wouldn't be attracted to such kind of girl in the first place.

But if I was with Carol, I would probably behave just like you. Maybe not even because I wanted or planned it, but because Carol's personality is such that she inspires such kind of behavior. Probably, in the first phases of the relationship I would try to change her to be more assertive and to form her own strong opinions, after I saw that I am failing in it, I would probably do the same thing you did.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 12:37:38 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Well given the way you puport to flip and change your opinions *every five seconds* I'd hope you wouldn't try to dictate how someone else views the world...

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 12:38:54 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		To the OP,

The very boring truth is that the worst case scenarios that you envision are not very common.

You fret over unscrupulous Masters who take advantage in TPE relationships but what you are not understanding is that many relationships that identify as TPE don't come close to matching with your criteria.
That in fact, most of our relationships don't fit into any of the neat little labels you could locate on-line... because we are individuals.

My biggest concern regarding your posts however is you: it seems to me that you worry an awful lot.
Worse yet, you worry over things that you have no control over.
Worrying over things in which you have no locus of control is a very stressful preoccupation.
This is not any way to find peace and happiness.

IMOHO I think you need to find a place where you can channel this energy.
So, volunteer, go do some good: an animal shelter, a nursing home, building houses... something.

I also think you should find a TNG group near you so you can see how stuff works in real life and not just via on-line sound bites.

edit: punctuation

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 5/22/2010 12:40:49 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 12:39:50 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		See. this is why I called you an asshole. You just called a mans wife mentaly challenged and compared her to a 10 year old.

How is that not the height of obnoxious behavior?

If you had done that in person, you'd likely get the shit kicked out of you.

But people like you never do it in person.


You are an asshole


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 12:40:09 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Which brings us back to the original post I made.....in this guy's mind there is no way any of our relationships can be reasonable because it HAS to be about mental illness. It's much like the thread about trying to convince nonkinky people that wiitwd is ok. You can't and you will not win with this guy. He gives the appearance of intelligence and naivety...however, he's just here to judge and criticise in kind words.

SN, why are you here? If you really believe that all subs are damaged and Doms that exercise control are abusive...why exactly are you on the CM boards? To use that to your advantage and get laid? That seems to be what you stated in one of your many intellectually dishonest posts. Do us a favor, stop with the threads until you are ready to listen and stop judging and telling everyone how messed up we are. You have not one clue what you're talking about. You have ZERO experience and quote things about "the best Doms" and "most subs"...which is also dishonest crap. Knock it off.

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I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 1:19:41 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		There is an upside to all of this.

Long after this OP has come and gone, and a few years pass, most of us will have likely forgotten all about him.  Much as we do others who have come and gone here, with their opinions and attitudes about how sick we are.  Or how wrong we are.  How twisted we are or any other thing.  It will have little consequence.

On the other hand, when the OP gains in a few years and in his personal experiences.  When perhaps the world opens up for him a little more.  Maybe his attitudes change because he learns something out in the real world.  In his world and maybe he finds that he wasn't quite so right after all.  He'll be the one who has to live with the fact that he just might have been the one wrong and short sighted.  And he'll have pages and pages to remind him of just how little he knew.

Come talk to Me in ten years, OP.  We'll see how the conversation really ends.


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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 1:35:06 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Too bad they moved this thread. I thought it was good.

Oh well, check your private cmail SN.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to SocratesNot)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 1:44:27 PM   
SocratesNot


Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline 		Where to find my private mail. I deleted my profile on Collar me, I have only this profile on the message boards. If this is not a problem for you could you tell me where to find the messege or resend this to my email

[mod edit address removed]

< Message edited by ModeratorSixteen -- 5/22/2010 2:59:48 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 1:44:44 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		Actually, Jeff, if the OP read your signature line , and internalised it, he would have learned something valuable.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 2:02:24 PM   
SocratesNot


Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline 		@leadership527: Actually I recreated my profile so you can send the mail again if you wish.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 2:02:36 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline 		Hey Asshole

I thought your name was Jefffffffffff

You lied

I hate you

Bitchyzeph


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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/22/2010 3:28:15 PM   
GraciousLady


Posts: 529
Joined: 7/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Since many of you complained about me being intolerant of practices of other people, now I would like to ask you a completely theoretical question.

If you are a completely sane, sensible human being and you consider certain practice to be totally abhorrent and objectionable, not just because you don't like it, but because you think it is utterly wrong because of some logical or ethical reasons, how do you deal with the possibility of existence of another sane, sensible human being who does not consider that very same practice to be objectionable at all?



As a Pagan I practice, "Do as thou wilt least it harm no one." That means if an action harms someone or some sentient creature it's wrong. I don't know any sane person who thinks it's ok to do harm. The levels of harm may vary but if it causes harm it's wrong.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 12:37:04 AM   
SirPumpy


Posts: 219
Joined: 9/26/2007
From: Country Victoria, Orstraliya
Status: offline 		Notsocrates is a moron confirmed by his stating and attempting to use wikipedia as a factual basis for his argument.

Arsehole is an understatement

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 5:18:48 AM   
SocratesNot


Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

Notsocrates is a moron confirmed by his stating and attempting to use wikipedia as a factual basis for his argument.

Arsehole is an understatement


Even if some stuff in Wikipedia is total crap and some other stuff unverified information, I can assure you that Wikipedia is much more trustworthy than opinions of random forum posters, especially if they are angry.
However, you have to spit out your negative feelings of the day, so no problem for me, go for it.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 5:28:22 AM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
I can assure you that Wikipedia is much more trustworthy than opinions of random forum posters, especially if they are angry.
However, you have to spit out your negative feelings of the day, so no problem for me, go for it.



Seeing as it can be written by people who give their opinions on a forum not really, you see Wiki works because people with specialised knowledge write the articles.

This here is a BDSM forum, the people here have been living it they are the best people to ask as they know. You dismiss everything people say if you don't feel it, which is a shame.

Leadership is a very respected poster on this site, the last thing I would say is that he is taking advantage of a mentally stifled woman, and as you know very little about their relationship I would suggest you reassess your opinion. It may not be a relationship that you want but that doesn't make it wrong. There are many types of relationships I wouldn't want but that doesn't mean I think they shouldn't exist.

It is very easy to be tolerant you know, most of us are tolerant of things every day, we simply ignore the minor irritations. I have said to you already you would be better to listen rather than talk, but you seem to not agree. So I am going to ask you some things.

- Why are you here?
- What type of relationship do you want?
- When you see something you don't like what do you do?
- What have you learned since being here?

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Profile   Post #: 60
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