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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/2/2010 2:27:25 PM

Rule

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From Wikipedia:

quote:

Confucius argued that under law, external authorities administer punishments after illegal actions, so people generally behave well without understanding reasons why they should; whereas with ritual, patterns of behavior are internalized and exert their influence before actions are taken, so people behave properly because they fear shame and want to avoid losing face. In this sense, "rite" (Chinese: 禮; pinyin: lǐ) is an ideal form of social norm.

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/2/2010 2:28:56 PM

kdsub

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But you see I believe he is saying exactly that…below is a sentence

“Whilst reading a post on another website. I came across a posting where the person said that they believed it is no coincidence that the higher the education level of a country, the less importance religion carries, this made me wonder if this was true, could a better world be gained simply by investing more in the education of all, not just the privileged few. “

Lets turn the order of thought around…Invest more in education and it would be a better world because religion would have less importance.

Below is another thought

“could war be sorted out and with that, could war based on religious ideals be sorted out? Could we infact have a more productive and settled world, you know, the utopian dream where people see the futility of war and resign it to the history books and we all sort of live happily ever after, to a fashion.”

Lets turn this around as well …If we were better educated then war based on religion would be sorted out because religion would be of less importance.

All the above based on a bullshit study that says people of religion are less intelligent. As if intelligence and education have anything in common.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/2/2010 2:35:12 PM >

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/2/2010 2:35:53 PM

Moonhead

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That last one I definitely agree with.

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/2/2010 2:44:09 PM

kdsub

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Moonhead I think Aneirin is a good man at heart...and I know he and I look at religion with different view points but... I believe he has the misguided beliefs I've pointed out. I'm not sure he is even aware of his feelings but they come through in post after post. I respect his point of view I just believe he is wrong.

I admit I went overboard with the less intelligent racist line however.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/2/2010 2:54:55 PM >

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/2/2010 3:42:04 PM

DeaconStone

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Some thoughts to share from my head on the topic without being labored, or invested...

1. The book "Outliers" looks at people who exist outside the social norms of intelligence and athletics. It found that there was a point where it mattered little how intelligent you were beyond another and instead reasoned beyond said point you were "intelligent enough" to do things like abstract thinking and the like. Beyond that point other factors came into play for metrically measuring success. Thus IQ can be a basic measure of "intelligent enough".

2. Some basic premesis on both Education and Religion

Education
Education should theoretically be unbiased. (though clearly and unfortunately this is not the case anywhere I've ever seen)
The highest goal education seeks to make people aware of all currently known possibilities in relation to a subject and teachs people to come to conclusions themselves.
Educations end goal is to present known quantifiable facts.

Religion
All religions are biased.
The highest goal of all religions is to convert people into believers for the purpose of reaching a state of nirvana (heaven, valhala, etc...)
Religions generally present no quantifiable facts, and generally do not seek to as they speak to "All People" which includes the uneducated.

3. Einstein already said it better.... "The Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941. " http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/library/ae_scire.htm

4. Nothing says that educated people can not be religious, or that religious people can't be educated. They are not mutually exclusive, but the information presented and the purpose for presenting it may be conflicted.

5. Ignorant people are generally uneducated.

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/2/2010 5:45:45 PM

Aneirin

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In defence of myself, I am a dyspraxic, quite possibly aspergers, I have difficulties in the realms of communication, be that written or spoken. I know what I mean when I say what I say, and when talking with other aspies, they also know what I mean, in fact my first conversation with an aspie, I was so surprised they actually understood what I was on about, and could offer me food for thought in response. Of course I did not know they were aspergers, I learned that later when I asked why it was this person actually understood what I was saying, this person was an academic with an understanding far deeper than mine, but the conversation was good and fulfilling.

But on these things I bring up, I do so, for I believe despite the ills that surround our daily lives, there is a way forward, and that forward movement is all about thought, or be it change of thought. Refuse to accept the status quo, that which we have been brought up to believe is the only way, and think there has to be a better way than this, for anyone has to agree what we have is not anywhere near acceptable for all, and when I say all, I mean everyone of whatever allegiance, wherever they may be in the world.

I believe in the possibility of a brighter future for all for the simple fact that if we stop striving to seek the better, then we become stagnant and quite possibly will reverse our thought, that to me is not evolution, it is devolution, something I believe we are not meant to do, if it is meant, then we have to accept devolution and there the extinction of our species, are we that suicidal.

Religion is not a problem per se, but religious dogma can be and with that its multitude of interpretations that serve those who seek authority over others, again I believe religion was not meant to be that way, it is just it has been seized upon by the immature. Religion or rather spirituality to me, is a set of guidelines for a person to be the best person they can be, for themselves, those around them,and their habitat, not an allegiance gathering mission to set people apart.

I believe as a world, we have perhaps lost our way, we it seems believe in the good of the singular, not the good of the many, we strive to reap rewards for our own selfishness and disregard all others who surround us, we are the most important, not the others. To me, that is the wrong action and the wrong way, for it leads to greed, envy and conflict, something in all our history, we have not yet learned to move away from, we do not learn by past mistakes, so with present thought, we are in effect chasing our tails waiting for our doom, which might come sooner rather than later the way we are going.

My spirituality, it is my own to define, I draw from Christianity and Islam, Hindi and Buddhism and a myriad other beliefs throughout time, for I believe this truth we are all it seems seeking is scattered amongst the worlds people and the beliefs they hold. Each religion that indefatigable truth that is inherent in each, is just one part of the jigsaw we must piece together.

I am and pride myself on myself being an independant and free thinker, I seek my own truths in this world, truths I dig deep to find and there ponder a while before that truth leads to the next question, for I believe what we hear maybe nothing of the truth and what we see might even be a fraction of that.

The term racist I do not accept, for I am not one, I have made some errors in the past and no doubt will do so again, for I am only human. I accept the human in others and so expect the same from others, as not one of us is perfect and in reality what are we as we meander our way through life, are we but children in a classroom, the classroom of life.

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/3/2010 4:25:08 AM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Yes, I agree, cleansing of a sort, cleansing the world of famine, poverty and war, is that acceptable ?

If attempts were made to raise the IQ of everyone through correct conditions, nutrition, education and stimulation maybe, just maybe we just might move away from our present selves and become something a bit more advanced.

If the world moved toward giving each person the correct nutrition and education we would already have to be more advanced than our present selves. We would have to have replaced greed with compassion.

But we could set up a system whereby undesirable people could be neutered and the right kind of people encouraged to breed or even set up selective breeding. Then we could also set up the system whereby only the correct conditions and the correct education and the correct stimulation is offered those offspring. The world could have a master or super race of people who are advanced. A final solution as it were.

You mean like the eugenics programmes tried in the past, firstly in America and then in Germany and to a minor extent some other Scandinavian countries, I don't think so for such a master race would always need the less intelligent for the menials of life and that by forced actions, slavery for example.

That is not my way of thought, what is, is whoever, wherever they are born and from what heritage or conditions, give them the same stimulus, education and self belief so that they may go on to educate others, but yes, compassion is needed and though it may not replace greed, it could be held to be of equal value.

In America, in Britain, wherever, what does the education system do now, what is it's aim, if it isn't anything other than providing minions to work for others, then please tell me, as all I see, is those that can afford get enhanced, perhaps proper education so that they emerge a totally different person to the state educated.

But access to better education does not necessarily mean a person's intelligence will be greater, it simply means the education is better for there is dullards in every level of society. But perhaps a person who may be a dullard might only be that in the field of study they are engaged in for most know many are but square pegs whittled and battered into round holes, a case of you will fit even if we have to remove a part of you in the process, you will comply.

No, I am fully in favour of finding what a person is naturally good at and there giving them the training to be the best in their field at what they do, in time we may have a society made up of better more thoughtful people who can move this world into a new beginning away from the crap of the past and especially war, for that can create everything else that we have come to know as being detrimental to people.

War is people, and of those people, those that fight, kill and be killed are years of love and education, they are containers of so much wealth a wealth we allow to be destroyed by the stupidity of war.

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/3/2010 4:30:47 AM

LadyEllen

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IQ is to psychology as accounting is to arithmetic.

Each is a flexible tool, apparently derived from a reliable, methodical and empirical source, which can be used to produce any result one desires from a fixed data set. As such each must be taken with a pinch of salt and judged by keen enquiry as to the intentions of its originator - which all in all is its principle use.

Astrology was once taken seriously but has since been utterly debunked - yet many still take great interest for the entertainment value. IQ shall, I am sure, be similarly relegated and regarded in the future.

E

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/3/2010 4:54:26 AM

Aneirin

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But of the use of IQ testing in whatever capacity it takes and hopefully if it is done holisticly taking into account every variable from the emotional to the mathmatical it can at least provide an understanding of a person where previously it was unknown. Say for example a violent criminal once thought to be unfit for society, could it be that person has suffered a lifetime of misunderstanding, maybe he did not fit into the round hole provided and through lack of compassion elsewhere he was discarded as just beyond education, like it seems so many are, could it be if testing was commenced and results found against a standard scale, that person could be reabilitated into useful society by someone actually understanding the way that person feels and thinks and can at last in all their years of confusion find the correct shaped hole for that person to fit in. Is it any surprise that the prisons in Britain are relatively full of those with what is described as having learning difficulties and with that at last count, some 65% are dyspraxic in one form or other. To me, a clear indication of what we have for education isn't working, for it selects some, perhaps a majority and discards the rest to be fodder for the police and a bane to society.

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/3/2010 5:08:43 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Yes, I agree, cleansing of a sort, cleansing the world of famine, poverty and war, is that acceptable ?

You would have to believe that people are inherently reasonable. I think the evidence suggests that there is far more to our make up than the use of reason. No matter the level of education.....I doubt it can eradicate the instinct...habit...and custom...that lead us down a certain path.

Similarly...you would have to believe that we're capable of fully understanding ourselves and the world......and it follows thus utilise that knowledge for the good of the world's people......to date....we haven't been able to discover the springs and mechanisms of the human mind and apply universal laws regarding human nature accordingly. In fact...I'd say that today it's recognised that it is an unachievable objective.....and generally today's people tend to think that anyone wanting to know about the nature of human beings should look at what we do rather than try and read people's minds.

In short - I think your cleansing idea is an unachievable objective.

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/3/2010 5:33:33 AM

eyesopened

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Sorry Aneirin. I was responding to your use of the word "correct" education, "correct" stimulus, etc. Sounded so much like the Lebensborn program where the children were correctly bred, correctly educated, and given the correct upbringing.

You seemed to be focused on the elimination of religion through the means of raising IQ. Belief in a diety is not the cause of war, poverty, starvation or suffering.

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/3/2010 5:48:25 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
Belief in a diety is not the cause of war, poverty, starvation or suffering.

Absolutely not, no. It has quite often been used to justify all three, though.

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/3/2010 6:06:55 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

But of the use of IQ testing in whatever capacity it takes and hopefully if it is done holisticly taking into account every variable from the emotional to the mathmatical it can at least provide an understanding of a person where previously it was unknown. Say for example a violent criminal once thought to be unfit for society, could it be that person has suffered a lifetime of misunderstanding, maybe he did not fit into the round hole provided and through lack of compassion elsewhere he was discarded as just beyond education, like it seems so many are, could it be if testing was commenced and results found against a standard scale, that person could be reabilitated into useful society by someone actually understanding the way that person feels and thinks and can at last in all their years of confusion find the correct shaped hole for that person to fit in. Is it any surprise that the prisons in Britain are relatively full of those with what is described as having learning difficulties and with that at last count, some 65% are dyspraxic in one form or other. To me, a clear indication of what we have for education isn't working, for it selects some, perhaps a majority and discards the rest to be fodder for the police and a bane to society.

Sorry A - but we might as well go back to phrenology and analysing facial features as use IQ as any sort of precursor to or indicator of criminal or anti-social nature, or perhaps revert to another model popular of the times wherein the poor and the immigrant were the repository for such natures and consequent behaviours.

It would be great if we could acquire and apply such simple approaches reliably, but I simply do not believe that is possible, even using such modern variations as DNA analysis. I rather fancy the truth of the situation is one of vast and interrelated complexity involving many factors that interplay uniquely in each case and may or may not, dependent on environment, lead to the sort of behaviours we might regard as undesirable. In this regard we might note that the way the criminal law is framed in terms of principles rather than precise definitions that describe each peculiar way of committing a particular offence reflects this uniqueness in individuals, their motives and the circumstances.

As for education and the way the prison system is used to deal with people who should benefit more from psychological and psychiatric treatment I agree with you.

E

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/3/2010 6:16:06 AM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Sorry Aneirin. I was responding to your use of the word "correct" education, "correct" stimulus, etc. Sounded so much like the Lebensborn program where the children were correctly bred, correctly educated, and given the correct upbringing.

You seemed to be focused on the elimination of religion through the means of raising IQ. Belief in a diety is not the cause of war, poverty, starvation or suffering.

I am not attempting to focus on the removal of belief, personal belief but I find the concept of religion a dangerous animal to keep, for it can be directed and used for means anything but godly, usually by those that seek other things. Religion has become a known vehicle to enable agendas wholesome and not all through history and in the present day.

But regarding statistical evidence, it is fact that countries where the majority are educated to a higher standard, religious politics take on a lesser role. Perhaps this is the reason the Christian church has lost most of it's grip on modern society in the west, for we have had access to education beyond that in which church dogma has a leading role. Similarly from gathered data research has shown where there is little education beyond what is necessary to live by, religious dogma still has a firm grip and people's actions are governed by what their religion tells them whether they like it or not. To indicate an example, take a strong Islamic country and compare that to any in the west, examine the per capita access to higher non religion based education in each example. I clearly see a comparison and there wonder if higher education, say physics, chemistry and biology was available to all everywhere, we might, just might be able to end conflict enacted in the name of religion.

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/3/2010 7:03:01 AM

Rule

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All conflict is orchestrated.

My own IQ is very low, yet I am a supergenius. A former friend of mine apparently found it necessary to lie about his own already high IQ for fear that I would think him less than myself. He added nineteen points to his IQ. Unfortunately for him, I did think less off him because of his lie for I had some time before that already concluded that the higher someone's IQ, the more intellectually handicapped he is. (I do respect high IQ and such people easily out-think me, but they cannot think outside the box, whereas I can. They are very limited.) Five years later I discovered that he had lied about his IQ.

IQ has little significance and such tests are flawed and biased. It has been observed that people that have performed in their job for (if I recall correctly) two years, do equally well - irrespective of their IQ.

< Message edited by Rule -- 6/3/2010 7:23:29 AM >

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/3/2010 7:06:25 AM

domiguy

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When are you going to stop pussy footing around and take the helm?

I personally don't care about whether you cure herpes or not....You need to take your rightful place and rule all of mankind.

Quit fucking around.

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/3/2010 8:12:12 AM

Moonhead

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How are you a supergenius with a low IQ? A genius is defined as somebody with an IQ of over 140, after all.

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/3/2010 8:16:51 AM

Rule

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It is Murphy's Law in action: Everything you believe to be right, turns out to be wrong.

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/3/2010 8:19:13 AM

Moonhead

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That isn't actually Murphy's law.

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RE: The intelligence Quotient and it's uses ? - 6/3/2010 9:43:53 AM

Rule

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It is one of the many variations on Murphy's law.

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