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NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 1:44:27 PM

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I'm not going to try to force any sort of heavy-handed spirituality onto the framework of the D/s relationship, BDSM paradigm here...rather I am interested in a simpler question. What interaction I've had with people on/off the forums, in person, on the phone...several I have spoken with are obviously very intelligent, creative, seeking people...most unsatisified with the definitions, parameters, labels presented to them through exterior forces and tend to look, and define for themselves...for the most part I've found a lot of smart, interesting people. If social, cultural, peer constraints are examined, either adapted or discarded, then I was curious about your spiritual thoughts. Not religion. Though the root of religion means 'to bind' and there is a certain entertainment factor to that granted, I was wondering about your concept of self, soul, whatever and it's relationship to a creative force and the rest of creation...be it God, Big Bang, Joe down the street at the gas station that sells you your cigarettes, whatever/however you choose to define it and if you see that connection illustrated/demonstrated in the manner you act out your relationships with others in a D/s setting.

Thanks,
C

I'm still waiting for my proofreader dammit...

< Message edited by CERCKL -- 4/10/2006 1:45:30 PM >

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 1:49:52 PM

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OK for some reason the "search" page isn't loading for me- but we've done a few topics on this.

I've recently been calling myself a "neo-pantheist kinda" lately.

Not religious, and bdsm/Ds/Ms really has nothing to do with my spirituality (except in the way that obviously EVERYTHING is connected to my spirituality).

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 4/10/2006 1:50:28 PM >

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 1:55:11 PM

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i often wonder the connection, also of myself. how has religion infleuanced me? or in my case, more accurately, the lack there of?

i have had no formal upbringing at all.

i was raised to believe in God and spirituality, and we would pray every night, but i was never baptized, never learned about sin, or how God dictated me to live my life. never went to church. i was taught to worship and appreciate nature as my god and my body as my temple [that is why my tattoos are so important to me, with my piercings ea are symbolic]

i had some exposure [4 years] to siddah [a form of hindu, but i think i misspelled it] it focused mainly on meditation though.

i completely believe in God, and evolution. i believe that Jesus is the son of God, but there have been hundreds, he just got the spotlight. do not believe in heaven or hell [that may be the jewish Dom infleuance].

i feel very connected spiritually to myself and feel my D/s to be a spiritual awakening. i often desire to rekindle my meditation skills as of late, because i feel i have tapped into something much bigger than me with the power and dynamics that W/we have created within us in this relationship.

i dont know how to connect them though, i am still figuring it out myself.
i consider myself agnostic in the end. i think my mother was wiccan [she is since gone- before i had the chance to realize what she was beginning to teach me]

< Message edited by mixielicous -- 4/10/2006 1:56:43 PM >

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 2:10:38 PM

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I'm not religious but I am spiritual. I believe people are drawn to religion because humans are spiritual creatures and they feel a need for structure for that energy inside of them. Life is energy. It shapes us, we shape it, it passes between individuals or an individual and the world. The form it takes is specific to a person, or an organization, but it isn't limited by their beliefs and it certainly isn't dependant upon them. When someone dies, that energy goes but I'm not sure where.

D/s and S&M are a way of shaping that energy between people. Whenever I'm with Sir, I can feel it passing through our bond, that link we share. We create a circuit between us with the things we do.

I see religions in much the same way. They're a way of shaping the energy inside and around us, made effective by belief.

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 3:04:40 PM

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To me BDSM is a drug, mental heroin and has nothing to do with spirituality.

Spirituality has no foundation, just a clutching at straws in a hope of gaining some understanding on our journey between Nothing and Nothing.

“Life has no meaning the moment you lose the illusion of being eternal.” Sartre

I've never felt any sense of the eternal.

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 3:14:57 PM

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I have always felt that BDSM is an act of feeding the soul. Given all of the comments that I have heard from people who say that they "need" it but who don't know why or sometimes even what they want out of it it sounds like many others use it the same way.

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 3:17:47 PM

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OOOhhhhhhhh this is a good one given the path I have been on. I am a voracious reader and have been reading Shirley MacLaine's books for years because much of her spiritual journey resonates so strongly with my personal beliefs. I also have been introduced to Carlos Castenaga (sp?) in addition to Depok Chapra (again ? spelling) and Eckhart Tolle. I completely and utterly do not trust any organized religioun as I feel it has only been developed to control people and for greed of both wealth and power. I have also always disagreed with most, not all, but most religiouns treatment of women. To me all things are spiritual and have a connection. I feel a very deep afinity with nature and the balance of that spiritual connection inside of me. I believe that we are all connected in some way regardless of a D's lifestyle. I do however believe that my spirituality involves being aware and in tune with "the now" as Tolle puts it and there is it does bear a strong similarity D's play and the type of deeper relationship I crave.
L

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 4:13:28 PM

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I think we are first and foremost spiritual beings and are totally connected to everything and everyone. I think we mis-identify ourselves through attaching to the experiences we have and in so doing feel separate and apart from everything and everyone else, basically perceiving ourselves as little demi-gods, each one believing that they are the center of an entire universe. I believe that this is the cause of conflict in the world, billions of little demi-gods running around clashing with others self made universes, the mathematics of it meaning there has to be conflict.
The times we feel most *at peace* is when those separations vanish and we are content to just be, at those times we feel a connection to everything and everyone, almost disappearing into the unity of it all. A really easy thing to feel in nature.

How does this play out in D/s relationship for me?

Through surrender for me...intimate relationship enacting out a little play of a much vaster one and in so doing connecting us with that.

I think this is why Ive never felt conflicted about pretty much any religion. Yeah I can see how they all kept warped and strange in certain ways but at their chore they all seem to be the same, pointing in the direction of coming back to a real knowledge of ourselves.

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 6:51:10 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Halcyone

Life is energy. It shapes us, we shape it, it passes between individuals or an individual and the world. The form it takes is specific to a person, or an organization, but it isn't limited by their beliefs and it certainly isn't dependant upon them. When someone dies, that energy goes but I'm not sure where.

Beautifully put!

This pretty much reflects my spiritual stance, as well. I give a name to that energy, simply because it makes it easier for me to conceptualize. I call it The Universe.

Over the years I tried many different ways to be more in touch with the flow of The Universe, but I couldn't stop myself from questioning, and struggling, when things didn't happen the way I thought they "should".

While I believe in being inquisitive, and seeking knowledge, I've learned that you don't always get to understand why something happens. I've also learned that even if you think you did everything "right" the outcome of something often doesn't turn out guite how you hope. (Sometimes it's even better! LOL)

How does BDSM figure into it for me? Simply put, by learning how to submit to the will of another I learned how to submit more gracefully to The Universe.

Sometimes I picture The Universe as a very powerful dominant, and that helps me let go of my own agenda.

I guess you could say I am just The Universe's bitch.

Oh hell, now there's the perfect title for my autobiography!

Cin

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 6:54:19 PM

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I have to agree with LA on this. There is no concious connection to my BDSM and my sprirituality. I am a spiritual being and my beliefs and attitudes will spill over into play. My principles and practices are interwoven in everything that I do, so one impacts the other.

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 7:33:25 PM

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quote:

I've recently been calling myself a "neo-pantheist kinda" lately

You wear ultra-conservative panties? Jesus-- I figured you for bareback.........guess I gotta go back to the basics...

Ron

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 7:38:27 PM

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For me, being a Master is a spiritual calling. If you want to know more, it's much easier to click through to my profile than for me to try and repost it here (and, I'm lazy tonight).

In the mean time, for those who do feel that BDSM/Leather has a spiritual side for them, consider attending this small, intimate function: APEX Academy in the Butchmanns Tradition (AKA Butchmanns).
http://www.arizonapowerexchange.org/academy/index.htm

Yes, I get "saint" points for the number of times I promote this event in the forums. LOL

Fire

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 7:51:47 PM

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This is an interesting subject for me and one that's been much on my mind lately. I spent a lot of years doing a lot of different "religions" trying to figure things out and these days I kinda of believe in a sort of "great spirit, everything as energy" kind of spirituality.

My spirituality plays a part in my interactions with everyone and D/s is no different. Can't help it, it's been a BIG part of my life since I was very young. For me what's come through my brief experiences so far has been a greater understanding of my OWN spiritual energy, rather than being concentrated on an energy or spirit outside of myself. This is completely new for me.

What's REALLY been fascinating to me is how similar the experiences are to those created through various religious ceremonies. Also how similar some D/s dogma and manipulation is to various religions.(not the tenets, but the techniques). Also, the ego interests of some Doms are identical to what a lot of religios "gurus" seek. There is even the term "self-realized Master" used by New Agers which I find to be an interesting correlation.

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 9:01:19 PM

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I don't know if I would call it energy so much as a connection to everything else in this world *and things that are outside of this world*. I don't tend to call it energy, because I believe that the spiritual connection transcends the physical planes that we exist in. I believe that because those connections transcend the physical planes, it allows me to experience things beyond my normal day to day taste, touch, smell, hearing, seeing to places where I can experience things that have no words that I can find.

As for how that is impacted by D/s, when I am with my Dominant, there is a connection between us that just makes how we interact much deeper, much more intense if you will. It's like a door opens and we are in tune with one another, and together, we become something more than either of us were seperately. That new connection allows me to go deeper into my submission to experience a truer freedom...not one based on surface orders, requests, demands...external rules, etc, but rather allows it to be based on a much deeper level...if any of that makes sense :)

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 9:04:45 PM

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Well, certainly one looks for fullfillment and wholeness, and if it blows your dress up, it certainly is not wrong to attribute spirituality to it to some degree, I think.

Really, my only point would be that you have a spirit that isof some consequence; at least to yourself (and we know you have one because it is hard to attribute happiness to dead people when you see them, and you seem to be a viable force.0 I do doubt the sanity of a notion that hedonistic pleasure is a pleasure derived for the benefit of god. I think it is part of a living being even painsluts find pain and anguish empty if it lacks 'soul'.

Ron

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 9:41:33 PM

KittenWithaTwist

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I'm still searching for a possible spiritual path, and not having much luck. However, I am mostly on a path to intellectual enlightenment, with a ton of morality thrown into the mix.

However, my spirituality (or lack there of) and my relationship with BDSM are not at all related. I have a huge interest in theology and a basic understanding of several religious orientations, but I do not see how they can be combined with how one orients themselves on an interpersonal relationship level.

After all, many religious prophets have taught that the sexual relationship and even the loving relationship are uninvolved in Nirvana or Heaven, and that the greatest spiritual ideal is the one on one relationship with the worshipped Deity. Succeeding past the need for human love and passion and transcending to a plane of reverence for God seems to be the final state before Nirvana is reached.

How can BDSM, a very physically oriented state, be involved in a spiritual path, then?

Hmm, more questions than answers here...

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 9:41:59 PM

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General View on nearest thing to a religion I've come to.

My view is human beings have evolved to be born with such concepts as good and evil. It's good for society to strive for unattainable perfection and complete understanding and therefore increase survival. Society evolved before the concept of religion at least in any form we'd know of. However I believe, the subconscience nagging in your head that reminds you when you are doing wrong, is what created the concept of God and the equally good feeling when we've done good. As far as to what the point of all religions is, well, they are really are just a reflection of that subconscience moral code of behaviour(twisted over time to involve all sorts of arbitrary additional doctrine). Every religion at the core, is just a reflection of this moral code. It always struck me as odd that all the religions I've heard of around the world, at their core have nearly the same principles. This is the only solution that makes sense to me.

Now people deny there internal moral systems, for various reasons. Survival, greed, lust, failure,rejection, desperation,etc..... Basicly, when it intereferes with their Ego, or survival. However, I've never met one well-adjusted happy content person that made a habit of it as point of leisure. I think that is the lesson of all religions, if you don't do x, y, and z you'd be a much happier person, simply reminding us to listen to the nagging whispering god in the backs of mind. And actually it is true for most people. The problem with organized religion for all the good and bad they've done over time is the old saying "Absolute power corrupts absolutely". Truer words have never been written.

Man is in a constant pursuit of unattainable understanding and a perfect social system, the problems arise when people convince themselves that they should dictate understanding and moral conduct for everyone else in order to facilitate their "logicly" formulated code of right and wrong(generally based on only their needs and wants). I agree with a previous poster in that a large number of us, believe we are the be all and end all, and self appoint ourselves God-like. Silencing the voice of reason with the footstomps of domination(non-consentual), and arbitrary dogma. I'm me and you aren't therefore I'm better type of logic.

Hmmmmm, confused myself again. Oh, well to tired to proof read maybe tomorrow.

< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 4/10/2006 9:50:49 PM >

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/10/2006 11:48:05 PM

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Interesting...if you want to pull the existentialists into it...Paul Tillich, claimed that you should act as if there was no God, even though he believed in God, meaning that even with a God, one needs to take responsibility or their own lives...if you look at Stephen Batcheler's book, you see that he feels you can hold to a lot of the buddhist tenants with out causing it to be a religion...as for 'spirituality' having no foundation, I would differ...I would say that religion has no foundation and is an attempt to control people through intimidation, fear and hope for an 'afterlife'...personally, I hold with some of the tantric perceptions that you cannot seperate the 'spiritual' from the mundane...that this is where we are and shouldn't attempt to seperate ourselves from our reality but rather embrace and recognize it...I would also hold that a lot of the 'spiritual' language is just another attempt to explain other aspects of our reality beyond the perceived just as quantum physics, medicine,psychology, philosophy, art etc attempt to do...basic tenant of physics holds that energy just changes, mutates, but doesn't dissipate...and the body runs from electrochemical ...this energy changes...as to heaven/hell/karma/judgement/nothingness...who knows; again I think it's just language, narrative to explain our condition. I personally feel that we are the only animals who've forgotten that we are animals and that we tend to complicate our understanding; making it more complex than needed...when the primary truth is everything is...
C

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AND I AM TOO AN ASSHOLE, I HAVE REFERENCES!!!

"Please, please, please believe me, I really am an asshole. All that Enlightenment and Higher Learning shit was all a ruse."

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/11/2006 2:29:54 AM

ExistentialSteel

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Ahhh, you pulled an existentialist into it...me. I became a secular Baptist about the time I discovered serious literature. The church has a ceremonial function that is of value to society even if I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy. I am a humanist who believes the only power is the one that makes people want to be admired by others. Love, truth and beauty...that's all folks.

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RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... - 4/11/2006 3:27:52 AM

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As a child, I attended a non-denominational christian church. Mostly it was normal, decent people following, or claiming to follow, basic christian tenets. The older I got, the more the ideas of hell, and a seemingly schizo god, and myth presented as fact ate at me. I remember reading Harlan Ellison's short story "The Deathbird", and putting the book down, literally afraid I would burn in hell for enjoying it, and that story did much to sever the bond to my "old" way of thinking....

Fast forward to adulthood. Religion is nearly dead for me, and I am angry at what remnants of god I still hold in my mind. The memory of seeing a TV clip of children orphaned by a flood somewhere in Central America, while "Jesus loves me, yes I know" is playing in the background sets me off, even today. But inside... the little, niggling feeling of something larger, remains.

To make a long story short (and yes, I hear you all applauding lol), my beliefs now consist of a fair amount of Buddhism, and I don't know what you'd call it, a belief that we all have god in us, we're all a piece of god... that god is love, and compassion, and truth, and courage. Any time you see those things, you're witnessing god. Any time you bring them into the world, you are literally manifesting god.

How does this jibe with my kink? As others have said, my spirituality permeates all that I am and do. The Buddhist teachings help with inner peace and clarity, which in turn assists in self-mastery. And manifesting god, in a relationship, aids in developing a bond between owner and owned.

Level

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