RE: NO...not the spiritual trip...

RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (Full Version)

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Prunesquallor -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/11/2006 4:15:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross OK for some reason the "search" page isn't loading for me- but we've done a few topics on this. hurriedly starts his new thread: "What is the Difference Between a Slave and a Sub?"

meatcleaver -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/11/2006 5:05:30 AM)
Just to add. It seems to me that the very idea of communing or communicating with god or some higher power or that we as humans have some special place in the universe, is a gross, unadulterared human conceit. Look at the whole of human history, when humans have got themselves into the shit, there has never been a god or greater power to dig them out. They do it themselves or they don't do it at all. We are territorial and group animals and quickly become stressed when territory is infringed and we are outcast from the group. Feeling spiritually a part of the whole just indicates material and mental well being. Generalisations are dangerous but we are a species and one has to look at the big picture and not individuals (individuality is another conceit come to think of it.)

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/11/2006 5:35:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prunesquallor hurriedly starts his new thread: "What is the Difference Between a Slave and a Sub?" ROFL you bastard!

Prunesquallor -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/11/2006 7:01:00 AM)
[:D]

Sunshine119 -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/11/2006 1:51:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Just to add. It seems to me that the very idea of communing or communicating with god or some higher power or that we as humans have some special place in the universe, is a gross, unadulterared human conceit. Anselm said that God was "that which no greater can be conceived". If I can conceive of a God which is universal and is bigger than I can only imagine, unimaginable, and I engage in some form of communication with that being, who are you to call it "gross, unadulterated human conceit". If your "that which no greater can be conceived" is the Master in your M/s relationship and you can communicate (hopefully) with your innerself, then you are, in effect, communicating with your god. Is that then "gross, unadulterated human conceit"? To answer the OP's question, my D/s relationship mirrors my relationship with my God. It reminds me to submit in a world where I dominate at many things. Consequently, it reminds me to submit to the world and serve those with whom I work because I serve both my God and my Dominant. It is tender and gentle at times. And it is a whirlwind of passion, pain and suffering at times. These states are mini-manifestations of life. Now...if only I could get it right!

meatcleaver -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/11/2006 2:53:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sunshine119 Anselm said that God was "that which no greater can be conceived". If I can conceive of a God which is universal and is bigger than I can only imagine, unimaginable, and I engage in some form of communication with that being, who are you to call it "gross, unadulterated human conceit". It matters little to me what a medieval theologian said, his thoughts come from a time when it was almost inconceivable to imagine a universe without a god and if one should pose the very thought the universe was godless, then no doubt excommunication and a quick delivery into the here after would quickly follow. As for communicating with an eternal being, this is one of the paradoxes of our society, people have been put in straight jackets for less. Though as Foucault points out, madness is cultural. For the most part I don't believe him but sometimes I have my doubts. As for god existing, one can't prove a negative so I can't prove a god or greater power doesn't exist but those that believe one does, have had very little success in proving a positive which is why faith and belief remain that and nothing more.

Enlightendgurl -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/11/2006 11:19:10 PM)
[:)]Papa and everyone else intrested in this conversation, the most difficult questions in life ... require the simpilist answers... **** PAPA CERCL IS, My religion, and my spirituality... He completes me wholly...And allows and directs my growth. I live my spirituality; and everything is a lesson... EVERY single thing ... Namaste'

cmatrix4761 -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/12/2006 2:23:57 AM)
I pity the one without spirituality. He who has no higher goal than pleasure in life is doomed to an unfulfilling existence. Spirituality is about more than just the God question. It's a dictation of morality. He who has no spiritual beliefs or pursuits also has no morals. Of course, by this definition, atheism doesn't necessarily denote absense of spirituality. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver To me BDSM is a drug, mental heroin and has nothing to do with spirituality. Spirituality has no foundation, just a clutching at straws in a hope of gaining some understanding on our journey between Nothing and Nothing. “Life has no meaning the moment you lose the illusion of being eternal.” Sartre I've never felt any sense of the eternal.

meatcleaver -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/12/2006 2:43:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cmatrix4761 I pity the one without spirituality. He who has no higher goal than pleasure in life is doomed to an unfulfilling existence. Spirituality is about more than just the God question. It's a dictation of morality. He who has no spiritual beliefs or pursuits also has no morals. Of course, by this definition, atheism doesn't necessarily denote absense of spirituality. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver To me BDSM is a drug, mental heroin and has nothing to do with spirituality. Spirituality has no foundation, just a clutching at straws in a hope of gaining some understanding on our journey between Nothing and Nothing. “Life has no meaning the moment you lose the illusion of being eternal.” Sartre I've never felt any sense of the eternal. Shedding the illusion of spirituality does not mean ones total position in life is to find pleasure at the cost of all else. Though in regard to kink, that is the reason I take part. I think many people mistake spirituality for the sense of mystery that pervades our existence. Looking up at the stars in awe on a starry night is not spirituality but a wonderment at the mystery the universe holds. However, as Foucault pointed out, the reason why the moon orbits the earth is for reasons that can be extrapolated. The mystery is inside our own heads.

cmatrix4761 -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/12/2006 2:59:10 AM)
Spirituality is more than just the secrets of the void. Spirituality is having a higher purpose which drives us to do things which are against our nature in order to help more than just ourselves. Socialism and democracy can be considered to be spiritual to a very small degree by that definition. And, not to rain on Foucault's parade (no offense, btw), but not everything can be perfectly extrapolated. If you miss my point, please feel free to explore Quantum Mechanics. It will blow your mind if you can grasp the theory and the mathematics.

Level -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/12/2006 3:02:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cmatrix4761 Spirituality is about more than just the God question. It's a dictation of morality. He who has no spiritual beliefs or pursuits also has no morals. One of the most untrue statements that I've seen here. Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov, to name two, were tremendously moral men, and neither were religious nor spiritual. Level "The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom. " ----- Isaac Asimov "For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love." ---- Carl Sagan

cmatrix4761 -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/12/2006 3:18:31 AM)
Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov may not have believed in an elohim, but they sought to enlighten men through physics. That pursuit is the pursuit with a higher purpose and that makes them spiritual men. Just because their higher purpose happened to be science instead of God is a matter of reason not a disqualifier.

Level -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/12/2006 4:02:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cmatrix4761 Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov may not have believed in an elohim, but they sought to enlighten men through physics. That pursuit is the pursuit with a higher purpose and that makes them spiritual men. Just because their higher purpose happened to be science instead of God is a matter of reason not a disqualifier. You can't just arbitrarily tack on the spritual tag to them; there's at least a fair chance they would be offended at such a label. That is a disqualifier.

TheGentleDomme -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/12/2006 4:25:39 AM)
quote: Spirituality is more than just the secrets of the void. Spirituality is having a higher purpose which drives us to do things which are against our nature in order to help more than just ourselves. Socialism and democracy can be considered to be spiritual to a very small degree by that definition. And, not to rain on Foucault's parade (no offense, btw), but not everything can be perfectly extrapolated. If you miss my point, please feel free to explore Quantum Mechanics. It will blow your mind if you can grasp the theory and the mathematics. I agree that patriotism does look very much like religious fervor at times. Many do indeed treat political systems like religions... ala spreading democracy across the middle east. No no there's no religious subtext, really (/sarcasm) Spirituality seems to be what you make it. The definition seems to vacillate between moral enforcer and enlightenment guide. quote: Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov may not have believed in an elohim, but they sought to enlighten men through physics. That pursuit is the pursuit with a higher purpose and that makes them spiritual men. Just because their higher purpose happened to be science instead of God is a matter of reason not a disqualifier Enter spiritual naturalism. "To admit that we are matter and mechanism is to ground our selves in the wholeness of the cosmos. In the new physics, self coalesces from the stuff of the stars, exists briefly,... then flows back into wholeness. Such a concept of self can be ennobling, cosmic, ecological—more so than the ghostly spirit soul I encountered in freshman theology.... To understand that we are structurally no different from the rest of the cosmos is to let ourselves expand into infinity." -Chet Raymo I personally add some Joseph Campbell into the mix also. I think myth is also very important for us as human beings psychologically.... If one knows how to understand the poetry rather than focusing on the prose. Follow your bliss.

meatcleaver -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/12/2006 4:33:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheGentleDomme I personally add some Joseph Campbell into the mix also. I think myth is also very important for us as human beings psychologically.... If one knows how to understand the poetry rather than focusing on the prose. Follow your bliss. I think you make a very good point. We do require some poetry in our existence. I would disagree with many other posters who seem to mistake this poetry for spirituality which is a very soggy mean anything term.

MHOO314 -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/12/2006 4:49:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: cmatrix4761 Spirituality is about more than just the God question. It's a dictation of morality. He who has no spiritual beliefs or pursuits also has no morals. One of the most untrue statements that I've seen here. Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov, to name two, were tremendously moral men, and neither were religious nor spiritual. Level "The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom. " ----- Isaac Asimov "For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love." ---- Carl Sagan If I may pose another thought to these two comments then address CERCKL: I have always defined Myself as having "spirituality"--an inner wisdom that directs and drives My behavior to man and the universe--perhaps that is not the right term, perhaps I am simply moral--for I believe that both these men supported the universe as well.--So you may both be saying the same thing----and remember, beliefs of any kind based on something with out concrete evidence are "subjective"-- However, as I go back to My moral philosophy book--Plato defined that behavior as "moral balance"--so if one uses an inner sense of self to drive their behavior--can it not be either moral or spiritual? Now to the OP: Born and raised Catholic--however, after being an active member of the Church--lector and communicant--I walked away--and embraced the universe--the steady movement of the seasons, the earth, the planets, the natural order of things--I am a Wiccan, ( the Lady Amethyst when I spell cast)--but I think I am more closely aligned to Plato's teleology---yet I use Wicca because I like the goddesses ( no I don't beleive in female supremacy guys, so back away)--I identify more with them, I am more comfortable with that "natural belief"---but if it was outlawed tomorrow, My moral balance would not be effected for My "guidance" comes from within Me. Because I use that guidance to direct My behavior, I believe I am a spiritual being living life morally balanced.

TheGentleDomme -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/12/2006 4:53:42 AM)
quote: As for god existing, one can't prove a negative so I can't prove a god or greater power doesn't exist but those that believe one does, have had very little success in proving a positive which is why faith and belief remain that and nothing more. But I can prove that Jesus can't be the son of any god.... The infinite cannot become finite and vice versa. It is a logical impossibility. In other words, it is impossible for an infinite god to become a finite son. Can't happen. And poof all the christians disappear......... Why are you all still here? Um, did ya hear? Oh right, logic isn't necessary for faith. Damn.

ExistentialSteel -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/12/2006 4:56:51 AM)
I saw the series of interviews of Joseph Campbell on PBS by Bill Moyers. Interestingly, Bill Moyers was an ordained minister before his entry into government. I kept that in mind throughout the interviews and considered the conflict Moyers must have felt as he asked the questions, listened and learned. We all have our coming of age whether it be religion or BDSM. (Haha, how is that for getting the subject back to BDSM in hopes of salvaging the thread to keep it on topic?)

Level -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/12/2006 5:05:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MHOO314 However, as I go back to My moral philosophy book--Plato defined that behavior as "moral balance"--so if one uses an inner sense of self to drive their behavior--can it not be either moral or spiritual? *MH, it can* be "either", but I would add that it does not have to be both, which I think you'd agree with.** cmatrix seemed to be willing to lump both men into the spritual camp because they were moral and as you said, "supported the universe" with their life work... to me, that's no different (or correct) than taking someone who supports gay people/rights and automatically naming them "gay".

MHOO314 -> RE: NO...not the spiritual trip... (4/12/2006 5:31:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: MHOO314 However, as I go back to My moral philosophy book--Plato defined that behavior as "moral balance"--so if one uses an inner sense of self to drive their behavior--can it not be either moral or spiritual? *MH, it can* be "either", but I would add that it does not have to be both, which I think you'd agree with.** cmatrix seemed to be willing to lump both men into the spritual camp because they were moral and as you said, "supported the universe" with their life work... to me, that's no different (or correct) than taking someone who supports gay people/rights and automatically naming them "gay". I would agree that is does not need to be both, I also believe that if I choose to believe it is so, then it is---so perhaps in cmatrix's world, morality equates to spirituality quote: ORIGINAL: cmatrix4761 Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov may not have believed in an elohim, but they sought to enlighten men through physics. That pursuit is the pursuit with a higher purpose and that makes them spiritual men. Just because their higher purpose happened to be science instead of God is a matter of reason not a disqualifier. Perhaps adding the phrase "in my opinion"--for he does appear to equate the two as one. and to Existential's point, I indeed did miss the intial question--how this relates to My D/s relationships---it does not except that for an LTR, I seek one of the same idealogical beliefs for quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: MHOO314 However, as I go back to My moral philosophy book--Plato defined that behavior as "moral balance"--so if one uses an inner sense of self to drive their behavior--can it not be either moral or spiritual? *MH, it can* be "either", but I would add that it does not have to be both, which I think you'd agree with.** cmatrix seemed to be willing to lump both men into the spritual camp because they were moral and as you said, "supported the universe" with their life work... to me, that's no different (or correct) than taking someone who supports gay people/rights and automatically naming them "gay". I would agree that is does not need to be both, I also believe that if I choose to believe it is so, then it is---so perhaps in cmatrix's world, morality equates to spirituality quote: ORIGINAL: cmatrix4761 Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov may not have believed in an elohim, but they sought to enlighten men through physics. That pursuit is the pursuit with a higher purpose and that makes them spiritual men. Just because their higher purpose happened to be science instead of God is a matter of reason not a disqualifier. Perhaps adding the phrase "in my opinion"--for he does appear to equate the two as one. And to Existential's point, I completely missed the issue of how it impacts My D/s relationship, it doesn't, other than in an LTR, I look for someone who has the same idealogical beliefs for compatibility sake.

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