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RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 8:53:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

"The stock market" is one of the few ways that folks with present wealth can put that wealth to work. Why would you want to stop that from happening?
.

Just this. It seems to me the folks with present wealth don't put that wealth to work. They keep it and ask for more.

I don't consider myself wealthy but I have a lot of money in teh market. Some is in a 401 like most people but I directly invest as well. As bizarre as it sounds the only way to have successful sales of stock by the corporations when they need to raise capital is to allow those stocks to be traded and without that formalized way to generate capital that is not a loan modern businesses would have a terrible time getting started and expanding.

Wall St. needs more regulation by truly independent entities but it or an equivalent must exist.

(in reply to subtee)

RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:00:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

tee, I agree with you. I fucking hate the stock market. It's lunacy.

And you can't understand it, either!

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RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:03:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You consider that a sound business decision based on the company's fundamentals?

For starters, a little diversification would have been wise.

Ah, but the endeavor is exclusionary in its complications. Isn't it designed to be limiting? How would it work if it worked for everyone?

And yes, I don't blame the Enron employees for believing the lies they were repeatedly told. How could we blame them? The books were cooked for years with glowing profits allowed and the pols congratulating their outrageous, impossible profits.

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RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:04:14 PM

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A. The United States money supply is controlled and regulated by the Federal Reserve, you can not create money through the stock market. Inflation is only sustained if the money supply increase beyond its demand.
B. The Stock Market by definition is about buying and selling a piece of a corporation, and if you do not accept that and call it "naive" then you could never understand deep valuation, which is what long term investment is based on.
C. The Financial "crisis" did not stem from the stock market AT ALL. Look into mortgaged back securities (bonds).
D. There is a difference between speculation and investment... One is a lot more likely to lose your money.
E. People lose money in the Markets through ignorance and misinformation. I.e you can remove a lot of risk by vast diversification. Or, do not put all your eggs in one basket.

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RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:10:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkstar3167

A. The United States money supply is controlled and regulated by the Federal Reserve, you can not create money through the stock market. Inflation is only sustained if the money supply increase beyond its demand.
B. The Stock Market by definition is about buying and selling a piece of a corporation, and if you do not accept that and call it "naive" then you could never understand deep valuation, which is what long term investment is based on.
C. The Financial "crisis" did not stem from the stock market AT ALL. Look into mortgaged back securities (bonds).
D. There is a difference between speculation and investment... One is a lot more likely to lose your money.
E. People lose money in the Markets through ignorance and misinformation. I.e you can remove a lot of risk by vast diversification. Or, do not put all your eggs in one basket.

quote:

you can not create money through the stock market.

???'

How much of what goes on with the markets has anything to do with long term investments?

Again, it's exclusionary by design, it seems to me.

Welcome to the forums, also.

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RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:18:20 PM

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Anyone who "invests" is doing long term investment. Investment is not gambling. It is making logical choices about facts. Most people do not invest, because they do not know enough about the company to do so. And, long term investment is the major portion of the stock market, which is evident in GDP increases along with consumption increase, this is because of the the life cycle model theory.
Large investment firms utilize a number of methods, some which have been pointed to, but there is a great deal of emphasis placed on long term investment even in large companies.
And, no you cannot "create" money, only the interactions of the Treasury, Federal Reserve, and Banks can.

(in reply to subtee)

RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:20:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

It seems to me if you can’t beat them join them. So that means buy stock in J.P. Morgan and Goldman Sachs.

I hope you dont "really" think that gives you any kind of safety when the heads roll.

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RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:25:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkstar3167

Anyone who "invests" is doing long term investment. Investment is not gambling. It is making logical choices about facts. Most people do not invest, because they do not know enough about the company to do so. And, long term investment is the major portion of the stock market, which is evident in GDP increases along with consumption increase, this is because of the the life cycle model theory.
Large investment firms utilize a number of methods, some which have been pointed to, but there is a great deal of emphasis placed on long term investment even in large companies.
And, no you cannot "create" money, only the interactions of the Treasury, Federal Reserve, and Banks can.

Okay. Well, I gotta call bullshit on most of this here.

BP, for example, is being much more forward in disclosures to their investors than they are to reporters and the government. Why? Because they are manipulating their stocks worth. There is nothing long term about this, it is short term profits in the face of long term and very dire consequences. They are creating money out of worse than nothing--out of devastation.

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RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:25:37 PM

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The stock market is one of the most brilliant creations of all time.

Go to a socialist country. The government owns the means of production. Individual efforts are not rewarded because paper shuffling bureaucrats make decisions.

In the United States in the early 20th century, robber barons ruled the roost because they and only they were able to afford to start up a business. In modern times, both Apple Computer and Microsoft were founded by college dropouts and were able to expand quickly by selling stock shares.

The idea of a corporation (which is essentially a vehicle for selling stock) is that a company is able to raise cash relatively easily by selling stock, thus meaning that the bonds holding back capitalization are loosened considerably. Plus, a corporation is accountable to its stockholders - the fact that some guy with a 401K or some retiree with some shares of stock owns a chunk of a major company is mindblowing.

I'm not going to pretend that there aren't abuses. But don't let's throw out the baby with the bath water.

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RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:28:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

How does it seem to you?

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the stock market, tee. It's people investing in businesses and being able to buy and sell their stake.

Treating it like a casino, attempts at manipulation, the impact of very large institutional trades, short term thinking by management looking at share value, and mistaking market reactions for the economy's fundamentals are all complications, but can be mitigated with regulation and common sense.

quote:

mistaking market reactions for the economy's fundamentals are all complications
It seems to me this is rampant and will refuse to be regulated.

quote:

Without it, my investment options would be limited to low interest alternatives, and my retirement fund would be a fraction of what it is now.
And by the same stroke, some who worked hard and bought in as they were told have retirement funds that are fractions of what they could have been, no?

What about the "American Dream" of hard work and entrepreneurial spirit rewarded? Instead, computers and manipulators are running/ruining any values that may have initially been hoped for...it seems to me.

they kill you with inflation!

30+% since 2001

So that means for every 100 grand you lost 300,000 just for using the MM's concept money! Plus you get to pay taxes on the money when you try to recover your costs of inflation as capital gains.

Oh the grand joys of money as a concept!!!!! LOL

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to subtee)

RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:32:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The stock market is one of the most brilliant creations of all time.

Go to a socialist country. The government owns the means of production. Individual efforts are not rewarded because paper shuffling bureaucrats make decisions.

In the United States in the early 20th century, robber barons ruled the roost because they and only they were able to afford to start up a business. In modern times, both Apple Computer and Microsoft were founded by college dropouts and were able to expand quickly by selling stock shares.

The idea of a corporation (which is essentially a vehicle for selling stock) is that a company is able to raise cash relatively easily by selling stock, thus meaning that the bonds holding back capitalization are loosened considerably. Plus, a corporation is accountable to its stockholders - the fact that some guy with a 401K or some retiree with some shares of stock owns a chunk of a major company is mindblowing.

I'm not going to pretend that there aren't abuses. But don't let's throw out the baby with the bath water.

I used to have all the math that I did just for shits and giggles and used to post it for more shits and giggles.

The problem went like this.

If you had 1million in 1933 and made 6% and paid a super conservative 20% taxes on the money you made and you sold out in 2008 how much money would you have after taxes and the inflation over the same period.

well skipping all the math proofs for your investment you would wind up with a grand total of about 600,000 bucks for your 72 year investment of 1 million.

That said tell me what is so good about the stock market since it is founded on the federal reserve debt notes.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 6/3/2010 9:35:53 PM >

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"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:35:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
How would it work if it worked for everyone?

It DOES work for everyone; it supplies capital (i.e., the fifty bucks I hold in Avocent) to businesses (i.e., Avocent) which use that money to make shit, sell that shit at a profit (presumably because there are ready buyers who expect to make more by putting that shit to use than they're spending) and, in many cases, paying that profit to me as a dividend. In the other cases (such as Apple) they reinvest that money in R&D to ensure that they keep inventing new shit that folks want to buy, which ensures an ever-broadening income stream to the company in which I have an equity stake (i.e., Apple).

< Message edited by realcoolhand -- 6/3/2010 9:37:34 PM >

(in reply to subtee)

RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:35:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The stock market is one of the most brilliant creations of all time.

Go to a socialist country. The government owns the means of production. Individual efforts are not rewarded because paper shuffling bureaucrats make decisions.

Can we imagine a system that isn't one or the other extreme? That was my intent. What if the U.S., a democratic, capitalistic republic didn't have a stock market

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RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:38:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The stock market is one of the most brilliant creations of all time.

Go to a socialist country. The government owns the means of production. Individual efforts are not rewarded because paper shuffling bureaucrats make decisions.

Can we imagine a system that isn't one or the other extreme? That was my intent. What if the U.S., a democratic, capitalistic republic didn't have a stock market

no stock market of any sort?

All transactions would move into the private and would most likely go back to specie and lawful allodial title

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to subtee)

RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:39:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The stock market is one of the most brilliant creations of all time.

Go to a socialist country. The government owns the means of production. Individual efforts are not rewarded because paper shuffling bureaucrats make decisions.

Can we imagine a system that isn't one or the other extreme? That was my intent. What if the U.S., a democratic, capitalistic republic didn't have a stock market

Then you'd have a liquidity crisis; companies that actually have good ideas to put into practice wouldn't be able to sell an interest in that future income for cold, hard cash to pay workers, suppliers, et cetera. We'd all be farmers, which would not be cool.
Can we imagine a system that isn't one or the other extreme? That was my intent. What if the U.S., a democratic, capitalistic republic didn't have a stock market

< Message edited by realcoolhand -- 6/3/2010 9:42:31 PM >

(in reply to subtee)

RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:42:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

It DOES work for everyone; it supplies capital (i.e., the fifty bucks I hold in Avocent) to businesses (i.e., Avocent) which use that money to make shit, sell that shit at a profit (presumably because there are ready buyers who expect to make more by putting that shit to use than they're spending) and, in many cases, paying that profit to me as a dividend. In the other cases (such as Apple) they reinvest that money in R&D to ensure that they keep inventing new shit that folks want to buy, which ensures an ever-broadening income stream to the company in which I have an equity stake (i.e., Apple).

It can't work for everyone. It's capitalistic and therefore there must be losers. What I'm suggesting is that the original values that were attendant to the concept have been corrupted beyond regulation. It's too powerful now. And so we have to help them! Regulation is a badddd word. Everyone who wins wants to keep the status quo. Until they lose and realize it's rigged. It seems to me.

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RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:46:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

It DOES work for everyone; it supplies capital (i.e., the fifty bucks I hold in Avocent) to businesses (i.e., Avocent) which use that money to make shit, sell that shit at a profit (presumably because there are ready buyers who expect to make more by putting that shit to use than they're spending) and, in many cases, paying that profit to me as a dividend. In the other cases (such as Apple) they reinvest that money in R&D to ensure that they keep inventing new shit that folks want to buy, which ensures an ever-broadening income stream to the company in which I have an equity stake (i.e., Apple).

It can't work for everyone. It's capitalistic and therefore there must be losers. What I'm suggesting is that the original values that were attendant to the concept have been corrupted beyond regulation. It's too powerful now. And so we have to help them! Regulation is a badddd word. Everyone who wins wants to keep the status quo. Until they lose and realize it's rigged. It seems to me.

Capitalism is not a zero sum game. Capital has different relative value to different users (i.e., a microscope has greater value to a scientist than it does to me) which explains why any commercial transaction can yield value to BOTH parties . . . it's not always a matter of who is exploiting who.

And I agree that regulation is not always a good thing, but it can be a good thing. "Thou shalt not murder" is a regulation.

(in reply to subtee)

RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:50:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well then, perhaps you shouldn't invest...

[sigh] The profound weakness of this response speaks volume.

The point, of course, is that there should be no opportunities for anyone to simply multiply value without providing actual goods and services.

Making bets in a rigged game only destroys value.

Before the Great Crash, the rich were rampantly buying stocks at half price. I doubt the game is any better now, though perhaps the exploitation is mystified more, hidden behind intentional complexity.

< Message edited by Silence8 -- 6/3/2010 10:04:56 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:51:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Only if there's something wrong with owning part of a business.

If the tax system worked, rather than just milking the middle class, there wouldn't be all this loose money to play with.

If companies need to expand, they can get loans like the rest of us.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/3/2010 9:51:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well then, perhaps you shouldn't invest...

[sigh] The profound weakness of this response speaks volume.

The point, of course, is that there should be no opportunities for anyone to create or hoard value, that everyone should have to contribute actual goods and services.

Making bets in a rigged game only destroys value.

Before the Great Crash, the rich were rampantly buying stocks at half price. I doubt the game is any better now, though perhaps the exploitation is mystified more, hidden behind intentional complexity.

Buying stocks at double price, you mean. Eat it, paranoiac.

(in reply to Silence8)

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