RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (Full Version)

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leadership527 -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 8:35:49 AM)

In my experience, you'll find two camps here:

a) Those who think literally and so any conceivable command is included within the word "total". Clearly, by this definition, then nobody can be involved in "TPE". I always think of this as the "engineers" camp. My brain works like this so I avoid the word "total".

b) Those who think that so long as it is the master who is setting the boundaries, not the slave, then it is "total enough" *chuckles*. She has, after all, totally obeyed and the fact that there are theoretical instances in which she might not is not relevant.

Both of these "camps" are created strictly on the basis of semantics and have nothing to do with the actuality of the relationship. This is more akin to a religious debate than anything grounded in any sort of reality. In my actual experience, Merc's "No Clue" answer is the most correct. Carol and I are intimately involved in each other. I'm never going to command her to eat a turd. I have no interest in such things. But honestly, how could I know what I might have interest in if I were not involved with her? What if I was involved with someone else for whom such a thing was a massive turn-on? How would I feel about it then? What if I had been involved with that other person first before meeting Carol so I came to my relationship with Carol with a pre-existing interest in seeing her eat turds? What I am pointing out is that she and I are no longer understandable as distinct individuals. We gave that up when we entered into a relationship. My boundaries and hers are thoroughly dependent on each other. Even in a much less close relationship, there'd be some give and take going on. Were there not, then there also would not be any relationship.

For me, all of this stuff is meaningless debate. What I know for a fact is that I tell Carol to do stuff and she does. I'm satisfied with the scope of my authority and her obedience. Together we are very happy. Some people might call us M/s. Others might say "D/s". Still others might say "Not BDSM at all, more like a head-of-household" arrangement. In all cases, it doesn't matter. If I'm speaking to BDSM'ers, I use the labels "TPE" or "M/s" to get them in the right general mindset to view us. Then I follow up with actual discussion if it's warranted and they can find out the real "us", not some label.



leadership527 -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 8:37:23 AM)

Huh? what happened here... deleted



BitaTruble -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 8:40:05 AM)

fr

The question in the subject line - Do hard limits exist in TPE?

The answer for us is yes.. my own Master has lots of hard limits. [;)]



Kana -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 8:44:12 AM)

Sure they do. Those are the few things that if done she is hitting the door.
Other than that, no. The terms of our deal are simple. Do it my way or suffer the consequences. She did all her negotiating before the surrender.
Now I have hard limits galore, she knew those walking in, and I kinda strongly suspect that my refusal to engage in things like amputation, snuff, head shaving, face tattooing, may have had something to do with her original decision to surrender.



SocratesNot -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 8:46:05 AM)

quote:

Simple Yes.

When one takes on a Slave.. you take all that exists and all that it becomes. You can't change what it isn't or can't become. I buy my car and well it doesn't do well to take it boating. I can try but it's not likely I will have much use for the car at the bottom of the lake. I just might have to get a new car. Use a slave in a way that is a clear hard limit and you will very likely end up without or at the least something less than what you had.

Now the concern I have is that you can't readily determine before such a relationship begins all the Hard Limits that may exist. The obvious are often there but sometimes things can be even more subtle. This is why I have established a personal Code that Limits me with regards to my relationships between my girls. It's simply "Do thy will, Harm None". In short, My choices will be limited by anything that will cause harm upon Alandra or Kyra. This is not to say that some actions may not invertently cause harm but, I will not intentionaly cause harm upon them. Their trust in me to live up to this code is critical for our relationship.

Having said that... I precieve hard limits different than most. I see hard limits as something that is imposed by the individual on the relationship. In my relationship, Alandra and Kyra have not imposed an limits. But, We do have Boundaries. These are the limits that are they regardless of our desire to have them or not. They can't fly no matter how much they flap their arms. We must live within their boundaries as I have to live with my own.


I like this response a lot, not just because it is well written, but also because I agree with it.
I think this is a more reasonable response than RCdc's, because he actually said that once slave is in TPE, no hard limits exist if they are not acknowledged beforehand.
So, for him, a slave in TPE would eat shit even if this is a hard limit for him/her. Just because it isn't discussed in the beginning makes it acceptable for him to do it, even if this is a hard limit. I think it is important to know that slaves are not aware of all of their hard limits, so they don't know that they can't do some things before they actually try or before someone mention it in a discussion.



MsDDom -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 9:06:54 AM)

Keeping my response simple, yes, hard limits do exist in TPE...both for the sub/slave and Dominant/Master-Owner.



RCdc -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 9:10:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
I think this is a more reasonable response than RCdc's, because he actually said that once slave is in TPE, no hard limits exist if they are not acknowledged beforehand.


Pssst... Socratesnot... I'm a girl.[:D]... s'ok though...

quote:

So, for him, a slave in TPE would eat shit even if this is a hard limit for him/her.

I never spoke for Master, I said that under your limited question, the answer would be a yes.

quote:

Just because it isn't discussed in the beginning makes it acceptable for him to do it, even if this is a hard limit.

Actually, it kind of is.  If I am stupid enough to enter into a relationship with only half the information given out or received, I am allowing myself to be open to anything.  Actually, I am going to edit that because 'acceptable' is such a subjective term and not really a good word.  It's called being responsible for ones wellbeing.

quote:

 I think it is important to know that slaves are not aware of all of their hard limits, so they don't know that they can't do some things before they actually try or before someone mention it in a discussion.

Ah, but then you are talking to a woman and a s-type, not a man nor a master whom doesn't do limits and who finds the concept of limitations a false sense of security and so many other yucky things.  Now you can diss me about that if you like...[;)] OR you can discuss it like an adult.

the.dark.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 9:13:45 AM)

quote:

...doesn't do limits and who finds the concept of limitations a false sense of security and so many other yucky things...


Amen, the.dark.!!!...right there witcha'!!!



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 9:19:08 AM)

the.dark is made of win!



DesFIP -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 9:34:56 AM)

Of course people have hard limits in TPE. Say a sub develops diabetes. Obviously starvation play is now out the window, as is rewarding her with a large bar of chocolate. Bladder infections contraindicate refusal to use the bathroom. These are tangible problems that must be worked around, emotional issues are just as valid. You either are concerned with your partner's well being or you aren't. And if you aren't, and deliberately do things to harm them, don't expect to have them for long.



leadership527 -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 9:42:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
quote:

...doesn't do limits and who finds the concept of limitations a false sense of security and so many other yucky things...

Amen, the.dark.!!!...right there witcha'!!!

*nods* Carol and I are right there too. Honestly, the whole question of limits seems more appropriate to people who are having some sort of battle with each other. Carol and I are on the same team. It is not a zero-sum game between us.



daddysprop247 -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 9:58:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

fr

The question in the subject line - Do hard limits exist in TPE?

The answer for us is yes.. my own Master has lots of hard limits. [;)]


same goes over here. there are hard limits in this relationship, but they are all his.

now the tricky thing about that is, many of his "hard limits" are fluid and ever-evolving. what was out of the question at one point, may become an everyday part of life years later. and what was considered no big tadoo years ago, may become an absolute no way jose today. it's all his prerogative, and quite honestly none of my business. my job is just to accept, and do what i can to roll with the punches.



SocratesNot -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 10:25:17 AM)

quote:

same goes over here. there are hard limits in this relationship, but they are all his.

now the tricky thing about that is, many of his "hard limits" are fluid and ever-evolving. what was out of the question at one point, may become an everyday part of life years later. and what was considered no big tadoo years ago, may become an absolute no way jose today. it's all his prerogative, and quite honestly none of my business. my job is just to accept, and do what i can to roll with the punches.


Even if I didn't explicitly stated this - my question was actually about slaves - or more precisely -  Can SLAVES have hard limits in TPE?
For you the answer is clearly NO.
Now, I am asking the others for the rest of this discussion  - Can SLAVES have hard limits in TPE?

I know, most of you already answered YES, which is also my own opinion, but, the question is still open for the rest of you.



RCdc -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 10:45:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
Can SLAVES have hard limits in TPE?


May I just inject the idea that there is a small problem with your question though SocratesNot?
That whatever question you ask like the above, you will get a 'yes'.

If you asked, 'Can slaves have no hard limits in TPE'... the answer would still be yes.

So if the answer to both is yes, what does that leave you with as an answer, SN?

the.dark.



BitaTruble -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 10:49:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
Can SLAVES have hard limits in TPE?

I know, most of you already answered YES, which is also my own opinion, but, the question is still open for the rest of you.


Okay, so say I go up to Himself and say, "Hey, Master.. I have decided that blow jobs are now a hard limit so I won't be giving you any more blow jobs."

After he picked himself up off the floor from laughing so hard, he would certainly question me as to *why* it was a hard limit. Has time or age limited me in some capacity so that what I once could accomplish I can no longer accomplish? Have I developed a medical condition that would inhibit me? Did I read some horror story online about how giving blow jobs causes mouth cancer so I don't want to do it anymore based on fear? Was I brutally attacked and forced to give blow jobs so now I have a phobia?

Stating any limits, for me, is the starting point of a discussion.. not the hard and fast end. It opens up the line of communication so we can talk about the whys and wherefores, get on the same page and all that cool couple stuff, but the bottom line is, there are consequences to non-compliance in any area in the relationship we share and I'm either willing to pay those consequences or I am not. Limits don't matter a whit in our relationship.. consequences however do and those could be anything from his decision that we should not engage in a given activity to his release of me if I cannot or will not comply with his wishes.











SocratesNot -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 11:02:50 AM)

quote:

So if the answer to both is yes, what does that leave you with as an answer, SN?


Why are you insisting on such a brutal linguistic precision?

My actual question is:

If slaves have hard limits in TPE, do they have the right to demand that their Masters respect their hard limits, and can they prevent the Master from breaking the hard limits unless they decide to leave the relationship?



lally2 -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 11:17:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
.Even if I didn't explicitly stated this - my question was actually about slaves - or more precisely -  Can SLAVES have hard limits in TPE?
For you the answer is clearly NO.
Now, I am asking the others for the rest of this discussion  - Can SLAVES have hard limits in TPE?

I know, most of you already answered YES, which is also my own opinion, but, the question is still open for the rest of you.



in the TPE relationship i was in hard limits were never discussed - so far as he was concerned whatever he wanted he got.  BUT - big but)) - it was already understood between us through talking and sharing stuff that we were very much on the same page with pretty much everything anyway.  i didnt need to tell him 'no scat' because i knew his reaction would be 'i absolutely agree'.

the point is that people should, if theyre wise, enter a TPE relationship with someone who is compatible.  in other words, im not going to enter into a relationship with someone who gets off on animals, asphyxiation, scat and a few others.  but it becomes obvious through the normal course of getting to know a person whether youre compatible or not.

so yes i have hard limits and no i have no hard limits in TPE



bunnysubbie -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 11:28:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:

So if the answer to both is yes, what does that leave you with as an answer, SN?


Why are you insisting on such a brutal linguistic precision?

My actual question is:

If slaves have hard limits in TPE, do they have the right to demand that their Masters respect their hard limits, and can they prevent the Master from breaking the hard limits unless they decide to leave the relationship?



Yes. A slaves' limits even within TPE are incredibly important I think.



SocratesNot -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 11:35:26 AM)

quote:

Yes. A slaves' limits even within TPE are incredibly important I think.


Again, I am fascinated with how much fresh thought and healthy common sense newcomers to this site show.
And I am not ironic. I really think newcomers quite often have very healthy attitudes and opinions.
BTW, I agree with you here completely. And I would even modify it and say it like this:

Yes. Anyone's limits even in any imaginable  form of relationship are incredibly important.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? (6/14/2010 11:49:47 AM)

quote:

So, if slave has any hard limits and if the Master agreed not to ever break them, can this relationship still be considered TPE?


Personally, I would still consider the relationship to be a full-scope authority-based relationship (what some would call TPE). I don't use the term TPE any more because I don't think that there is -ever- a "total exchange" of power -- rather, it isn't power that is shifted... it is authority... and even in cases where one party holds what amounts to -all- of the practical authority in a relationship, there are still boundaries that are intrinsic to the individual which don't tend to be flexible... THESE are the "hard limits"... the places where, if asked to bend that far, the person would, even if xhe tried, end up broken.

The most effective authority-based relationships, in my experience, come from a place where everyone involved is open and aware of the majority of those boundaries, and where the boundaries are compatible between all parties involved. In my household, for example, someone who had an unbreachable boundary about protocol (in other words, xhe choked every time xhe tried to utter "ma'am", or "sir", or some such honorific or balked at uniforms or doing things precisely in a certain way) would not be happy, and I wouldn't enter into a contract with a person like that, because xhe'd be ill-suited to our household. So the 'screening' for what allows for full-scope authority-based relationships comes, at least in part, in not having to test those kinds of limits.

Just as an example, suppose someone came to serve me and had a "hard limit" against adult baby play and scat... it would be a non-issue for us, even if the other person had that limit, because it would NEVER come up -- I absolutely don't do adult baby play or scat... so there would never be an occasion of conflict where the servant's boundaries and my own desires would conflict. Similarly, if that servant had a limit that I -have- done, but don't really care about one way or the other or only did one time to try it out... one that I could willingly ignore... the fact that the limit was in place would be moot.

Really, such relationships are based on trust. If a servant tells me, early in the relationship, that xhe has an absolute aversion to, say, blood play, and xhe knows that I participate in blood play, but I let hir know that I won't require such of hir, and xhe trusts me enough to believe that I wouldn't knowingly force hir to do something that xhe was adamantly opposed to, we would be fine with a full-scope authority-based relationship... however, if xhe didn't trust me to keep my word and wanted to have it expressly spelled out that I did not hold authority in this area... well then, it pretty much speaks for itself that we don't have a full-scope authority-based relationship... because xhe has withheld authority from me and holds it hirself... does this make any sense?

That being said, this is the reason that I don't bring people directly into full-scope situations... these kinds of relationships take time to build, while both parties assure that, in yielding and accepting authority, they will be able to function together. It takes time to build that kind of trust in one another, and time to feel secure that one's boundaries are compatible. If it is meant to be, there is no hurry... and if there is a rush to get to the "absolute", then it is likely that the sense of "absolute" is more illusion than reality.

Calla



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