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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 12:30:27 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		WE do things for other people because it makes us feel good.

That is not altruism.

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 12:37:02 PM   
SocratesNot


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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Do acts that are completely selfless exist?


Like holding open the door for a stranger who is struggling with their packages or stopping to help someone change a tire even if it means you are going to be late for an appointment? Sure. I see examples of it quite often.


quote:

Can behavior be motivated exclusively by the desire to do good to others without expecting anything in return, without even expecting "good feelings" that usually accompany selfless acts?
Sure.. compassion is a strong motivator in my world.


Compassion, empathy - these are really altruistic motivators. I think about this issue exactly the same as you, Bita.


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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 12:51:18 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Being 'cruel to be kind' often doesn't feel good. In general, doing that felicific calculus - working out 'the greatest good for the greatest number' may not feel good at all. Military leaders probably do occasionally sacrifice a battalion in order to save an army, for instance - that can't feel good to them.


I'd say that's more akin to "assigning altruism", or in the very least, calculating a necessary hit for the higher reward, which then drifts from the realm of altruism to one of tactical logic, particularly when you're delegating what will be sacrificed and how beyond your physical involvement. Perhaps a better example may be a beleaguered crew of soldiers, knowing full well the certain doom in their sacrifice, electing to die so others may live. There is no reciprocal altruism (see Robert Trivers) involved in this example. This might be called "pure" without feelings of elation or grandiosity. Miserable and mortal purity of altruism is easier to undertake when cornered under circumstances of force, or as Sun Tzu wrote, "the courage of despair". The cohesive peer pressure of military brotherhood and discipline, and of course having grown up in a culture that glorifies—even deifies—self-sacrifice (Jesus died for our sins) makes such acts more psychologically possible, or in the least, theoretical.



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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 1:15:35 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
I'm not insisting on purity - I am just acknowledging that altruism does exist.


I believe Laurell is referring to this post in the previous thread you cited, where you do insist on the existence of "pure and absolute altruism".

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 1:15:50 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"This is a completely irrational question"

My favorite kind. Actually this subject can be difficult for those who have not yet shoved their foot up the grim reaper's ass. This is understandable but I think I can deal with it quite quickly. One question :

Will you die for Him ?

Now mind you that I am not religious at all, but that is a quote from the movie The Seventh Sign. Demi Moore was in it, although I don't remember actors much, I think she was quite the hottie for a time. In the movie the world was ending, pretty much on schedule because the "guff" was empty, there were no more souls to give to the unborn, it was about time. She had this dream several times, set in the time of Christ, with someone asking her that question exactly - will you die for him.

In the final scene, she was on the delivery table, the seas had died, there were earthquakes, all that cool stuff, and in that scene she responded "YES". With that of course the earth stopped quaking and all was again well as the guff had been refilled. I don't want to talk about that movie all day long so just rent it or download it. But the main thing was the concept :

Will you die for Him ?

Will you die for anyone ? This really sets the Men apart from the boys. (no sexism intended, more a function of language). In that example, though fictitious I find it quite ponderable in this context. There is no good feeling, there is no peacock tail and saving a damsel in distress to gain a desirable mate. There is no experience of even seeing the result of that kind of "altruism". Nothing.

But then the possibility exists that the character played by Ms Moore actually believed the she would get her reward in heaven. Now there are two points to ponder. Was it that she agreed to die for Him because alot of people will be mighty grateful when they get to her level in heaven that the world didn't end, or was it that she would indeed trade her life for the life of her yet unborn child ? Never to see Him grow and learn. Never to have the joys of Motherhood. Nothing.

So will you die for Him, and why ? The why is the most important.

Kudos to the OP for this topic, we are going to have to get out the super sharp hair splitting blade for this. I mean if religious, do you expect a reward in the afterlife ? If so you may truly be incapable of real altruism.

Logic.

T

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 1:26:22 PM   
SocratesNot


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quote:


Kudos to the OP for this topic, we are going to have to get out the super sharp hair splitting blade for this. I mean if religious, do you expect a reward in the afterlife ? If so you may truly be incapable of real altruism.


There are many religious people who believe in predestination - so it's already decided who is saved and who is damned and their deeds have nothing to do with it - but they still choose to do good.
There are other religious people who think they are great sinners and possibly even damned - so they don't expect to make it to heaven - but they still choose to do good in some cases.
There are yet other religious people who think that we are saved just be accepting  free given God's grace and not by our deeds - yet again they choose to do good.

< Message edited by SocratesNot -- 6/15/2010 1:30:04 PM >

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 4:23:44 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		There is no such thing as a truly selfless act.

People help because it makes them feel good and thus not selfless.


Reminds me of an episode of Friends when Phoebe is trying to be truly altruistic but gets frustrated because no matter what she does to help someone else it makes her feel good inside and thus not completely selfless.

It's a funny episode.

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 8:11:02 PM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		Why define altruism as something that doesn't make you feel good?

But anyway, the answer is yes. In Judaism there are five levels of charity. The lowest is when the giver gives directly to the receiver. The highest is when you don't even know you're giving charity. It seems to me, that would qualify.


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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 8:14:38 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		Main Entry: al·tru·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈal-trü-ˌi-zəm\
Etymology: French altruisme, from autrui other people, from Old French, oblique case form of autre other, from Latin alter
Date: 1853
1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others
2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species


From Merriam-Webster

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 8:42:24 PM   
Andoresu


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Status: offline 		One of the things that I learned from the university is that the humans produce a substance called serotonin, which is the one that brigns happyness. If you will to do something is BECAUSE it will give you serotonin. In no-scientific terms, every person looks for his own happyness, and that is why no one can be altruist.


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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 9:52:37 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
In Judaism there are five levels of charity. The lowest is when the giver gives directly to the receiver. The highest is when you don't even know you're giving charity. It seems to me, that would qualify.

To some degree taxpayers could then be seen as altruists, considering none know what "charity" (usage very loose) their money may be funding.

But in all seriousness, your example is interesting, and works on some abstract level. My qualm with it in the end is my understanding that altruism, like many characteristics and pursuits, is by its nature rooted in a conscious act or practice in order to be considered "there"; if you have no conscious awareness of "giving", then form of motive/behavior is absent. If motive for and awareness of a selfless act is absent, the associated altruism one places upon the theoretically clueless fellow doesn't stick very well. In my mind, at least...

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 10:50:11 PM   
SocratesNot


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Status: offline 		An act can be altruistic even if we feel happy because of the act. The important thing is that we were motivated by the desire to do good, and not by the desire to feel happy afterwards.

There is one saying that can illustrate this:

Don't seek happiness - if you seek it, you won't find it, if you give up seeking happiness you'll be happy.

So, if we do apparently altruistic act, just because of good feelings associated with it, we will not get these good feelings because we will be aware of our motivation. (Act 1)

On the other hand, if we do something because we genuinely care for the welfare of others, we will have good feelings even though we weren't seeking them. (Act 2)

Act 1 was calculated "good deed" done in order to feel happy or to calm our conscience, and such act will not lead to genuine happiness.
Act 2 was truly altruistic and it will lead to true happiness even if we didn't seek the happiness in the first place.

< Message edited by SocratesNot -- 6/15/2010 10:52:11 PM >

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/16/2010 5:32:30 AM   
Andoresu


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Status: offline 		The thing that I tried to express is that, even if you don't realize, your sub-conscious seeks for more happyness (serotonine).
One thing that we already made clear is that the most important part of the discussion is the meaning of altruist. For me, it is doing something without recieving any reward, and that can't be possible.


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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/16/2010 5:47:55 AM   
marie2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

WE do things for other people because it makes us feel good.

That is not altruism.



What if we do things for other people just to do things for other people? If it makes us feel good, maybe that's just icing on the cake. It doesn't mean our motivation is to make ourselves feel good. Is it only altruistic if it doesn't cause us to feel something good?

It's not even possible to do something good without in turn feeling good about doing it. Then we'd be without emotions, feelings, responses etc.

From my point of view it's just another one of those laws of nature; you draw back what you put out. It's not possible to do something good without drawing good from it. Likewise, it's not possible to do something evil without fucking ourselves, one way or another, at the same time.

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/16/2010 5:49:44 AM   
ricken


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Status: offline 		I have NEVER believed people can be altruistic. There is always a reward. They do things because it makes them feel good...yeah the brain chemicle thing.

That friends episode with Pheobe is great...


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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/16/2010 6:24:13 AM   
SocratesNot


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Status: offline 		You guys who think that altruism does not exist are completely wrong!

There are many, many, many ways to make ourselves happy and altruism is one of the least successful ways. Still some people prefer to be altruistic, even though they can make themselves happy much easier by some different action.

When I share a half of chocolate bar with my friend - I do it simply because I want him to eat it, because I know he'll enjoy it - after that I don't feel particularly good because of my altruism - instead I feel quite frustrated because I would rather have eaten the entire chocolate, especially if this is my favorite chocolate.

So, this whole story about good feelings is exaggerated. Altruism causes some good feelings, but selfishness can cause even more good feelings and much more easily.

And finally  - the existence of some internal reward DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE ACT IS NOT ALTRUISTIC.
The act is altruistic AS LONG AS WE ARE MOTIVATED BY CONCERN FOR OTHER PEOPLE AND NOT BY OUR GOOD FEELINGS.

For me, personally, THIS IS ALWAYS THE CASE - whenever I do something really good (which does not happen too often) I am motivated by my desire to make someone's situation better - yes, I will maybe feel good about it later, or maybe I will not even feel good about it, if I have some other concerns at the moment - but my motivation was not to feel good, but to help these people.

If I just wanted to feel good, I would get drunk instead, or I would go to the swimming pool, or listen to music, or eat my favorite food, or watch a comedy film.
All of these things would make me feel good much more easily, and the intensity of good feelings derived from, for example, great comedy, can be much greater, than the intensity of good feelings derived from altruistic act.

What about parents, brothers, sister - parents ALWAYS do good to their children - this is simply their nature - they are not looking for any kind of internal reward or good feelings - as I breath - every normal mother (there are exceptions) is actively trying to make the life of her children better.

The same behavior occurs quite often between siblings as well, and also between spouses and very close friends.
And this can also happen between total stranger.

If I saw someone in big trouble - I would be bothered by the very fact that he is in trouble. My motivation would be simply to eliminate the trouble in which he is.
Would I feel good about it later or not is not my concern nor motivation. And in some cases, I could even be concentrated later on something totally different, so that my internal "reward" can never come to me.


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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/16/2010 7:39:17 AM   
Andoresu


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Status: offline 		If you share your favourite chocolate with a friend, unconsciously you are putting on a balance the happyness for eating the whole chocolate and the happyness you gain for making your friend happy. If you choose to share is simply because you are happier (unconsciously) than eating the whole.


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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/16/2010 8:21:27 AM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		Perhaps the problem with Snot is that he defines happiness as being selfish. Getting drunk, eating the chocolate while denying it to a friend, all of these are selfish acts. If that's what he needs to feel a little better, that's sad. Many of us do feel better when we volunteer, when we bake stuff to give away and not eat it all, when we spend time with a loved one while they enjoy themselves even if we don't particularly love the activity by itself.

His assumption that happiness comes from selfishness is the problem here. I get good feelings when I bake my kids their special treats even though I would rather be napping than working.


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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/16/2010 9:26:21 AM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Perhaps the problem with Snot is that he defines happiness as being selfish.



Lots of folks do the same thing so I don't think that's *his* problem. In this area, I don't see that he has a problem at all. He believes what he believes. Period. No problem. Trying to convince him that there is no such thing as altruism isn't going to work.. obviously. It wouldn't work with me either. ::shrugs::

/highjack

This isn't the first time I've seen people shorten SN's nic to *Snot* either, so this is not directed strictly at you, Celeste, but I find it quite rude and immature. He has a screenname. Is it so hard to utlize it? If it's a matter of conservation of typing time to shorten it, then I'm sure typing SN will save even more time than typing out *snot* or at least ask him if it's okay to mutilate his screenname so that, at the least, it's consensual. Perhaps the word *snot* doesn't translate in his language.. I don't know, but I'm guessing that most people wouldn't like it.

/end highjack

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 6/16/2010 9:27:04 AM >

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/16/2010 9:36:19 AM   
SocratesNot


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quote:

His assumption that happiness comes from selfishness is the problem here.


I am not saying this- I am just saying that good feelings can ALSO be caused by selfish acts. So, there is nothing about altruism that would motivate people to pursue it just because of good feelings. I do good because I want to, not because of good feelings. I can get good feelings from altruism, but I can also get good feelings, even more easily, from selfish acts.


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