RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist?

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (Full Version)

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domiguy -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 1:25:35 PM)
You just don't like the answer that science has to offer. Which I can dig. But we are willing to make huge leaps when it comes down to the treatment of our eternal soul that we are not willing to take with other lesser matters. It just doesn't give us much peace to rot. There is nothing overly satisfying or comforting in that notion. we are not overly concerned about the eternal souls of chimps, dolphins or whales. They are too far beneath us to possess anything of value. So somewhere between chimps and humans the soul must develop...what about the retards? Is it the human that automatically gets the soul or do you have to have a certain number of chromosomes or obtain a predetermined level of consciousness in order to reach the pearlies? Why is it so awful to rot? Your energy is returned to the Earth un-embalmed to nurture future generations. I am not totally comfortable with my atheism that is why I joined an atheist support group. If we find ourselves in a deep patch we call upon each other instead of performing some sort of a primitive incantation to try and summon up our Lord.

mnottertail -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 1:28:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: The book of Job tries to deal with this very thing (to cite the obvious). Yes it does..... Why do bad things happen to good people... the devil did it, or the witch did it, or the evil eye did it.... Just one of the many things that religion offers to those who have it..... And one of gods answers when asked why a tree branch would fall on a man and kill him when the man was innocent was along the lines of: Hey! the fucker was in the wrong place at the wrong time, simple as that. (actually, I believe it was written something about 'time and circumstance' but it comes to that same thing.

juliaoceania -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 1:30:38 PM)
The point is you don't know what happens when we die... and I am not talking about humans, I am talking about all living matter. You have no more idea of what happens than a Christian does... science hasn't answered that question yet, and they may never answer it.... I have no faith or belief surrounding what happens when I die. I have no certainty about it. I am not "comforted" by not knowing... and I think my son is right.... anyone that seeks a very definite answer to that question is looking for certainty, whether you believe in a heaven filled with 700 virgins waiting for you, or you believe you just rot...

marie2 -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 1:32:24 PM)
I'll tell ya, BS. I really think for the most part I tried to see this from both angles. And for the most part, I don't usually debate around with most of the people that frequent this forum...So I didn't come into this with some of the biases that you guys have with each other. You guys go into these debates already with an idea of a person's position because you've had these discussions before with them. I haven't, so I've been sitting here trying to throw stuff out there, trying to make a point or two and trying to remain objective, despite the fact that I'm actually arguing the theists argument. But that doesn't mean jack shit to me. I'm not playing devils advocate, I'm arguing a principle here. And what I see is the atheist doing most of the squirming around here. quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub we would be discussing what constitutes evidence and reason, as it should be. The problem with this (and I did try to get to this earlier on in the thread) is we have to get both sides on the same par, instead of comparing apples to oranges.... I'm not talking about the belief that the airplane you're sitting on is going to fly. I'm talking about a moral stance, a philosophical belief, a life-principal type of believe...a belief that can't be touched or seen or proven under a microscope. If someone could admit to having such a belief, we could then discuss the concept of "valid evidence", but that is one more thing that every atheist on the thread has avoided like the plague.

NorthernGent -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 1:32:35 PM)
You're improving mate...credit where it's due....

brainiacsub -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 1:36:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I am not totally comfortable with my atheism that is why I joined an atheist support group. If we find ourselves in a deep patch we call upon each other instead of performing some sort of a primitive incantation to try and summon up our Lord. You are a fucker. It is not a support group, it's a social group - like a book club.

juliaoceania -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 1:39:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I am not totally comfortable with my atheism that is why I joined an atheist support group. If we find ourselves in a deep patch we call upon each other instead of performing some sort of a primitive incantation to try and summon up our Lord. You are a fucker. It is not a support group, it's a social group - like a book club. I joined a Free Thought Society when I was working on my BA. They spent most of the time worrying about how to combat the Christian groups on campus. I decided I did not fit in, because while I wanted to promote free thought, I did not see this as an avenue to getting there... just me, etc

Moonhead -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 1:44:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: The book of Job tries to deal with this very thing (to cite the obvious). Yes it does..... Why do bad things happen to good people... the devil did it, or the witch did it, or the evil eye did it.... Just one of the many things that religion offers to those who have it..... And a massive contradiction to most of what's claimed about God in the new testament of course, but let's not go there.

Moonhead -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 1:46:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marie2 I'll tell ya, BS. I really think for the most part I tried to see this from both angles. And for the most part, I don't usually debate around with most of the people that frequent this forum...So I didn't come into this with some of the biases that you guys have with each other. You guys go into these debates already with an idea of a person's position because you've had these discussions before with them. I haven't, so I've been sitting here trying to throw stuff out there, trying to make a point or two and trying to remain objective, despite the fact that I'm actually arguing the theists argument. But that doesn't mean jack shit to me. I'm not playing devils advocate, I'm arguing a principle here. And what I see is the atheist doing most of the squirming around here. quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub we would be discussing what constitutes evidence and reason, as it should be. The problem with this (and I did try to get to this earlier on in the thread) is we have to get both sides on the same par, instead of comparing apples to oranges.... I'm not talking about the belief that the airplane you're sitting on is going to fly. I'm talking about a moral stance, a philosophical belief, a life-principal type of believe...a belief that can't be touched or seen or proven under a microscope. If someone could admit to having such a belief, we could then discuss the concept of "valid evidence", but that is one more thing that every atheist on the thread has avoided like the plague. Which will be why you snottily dismissed my post about this in response to your last fit of victim whining about this? It's a bit rich expecting atheists to prove that something doesn't exist when you're completely incapable of proving that it does, after all.

mnottertail -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 1:49:09 PM)
Well, that all is explained in the advance of knowledge and standard of living (for lack of a better word). That is true of all the higher religions, where in the olden times the religions were mans struggle with nature itself. As they began taming nature (as best they could) and understanding it (that fuckin science rears its ugly head here.......) religion ellided from mans struggle with external forces to mans struggle with soul (internal forces).

domiguy -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 1:56:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania The point is you don't know what happens when we die... and I am not talking about humans, I am talking about all living matter. You have no more idea of what happens than a Christian does... science hasn't answered that question yet, and they may never answer it.... I have no faith or belief surrounding what happens when I die. I have no certainty about it. I am not "comforted" by not knowing... and I think my son is right.... anyone that seeks a very definite answer to that question is looking for certainty, whether you believe in a heaven filled with 700 virgins waiting for you, or you believe you just rot... Julia, we cease to exist...We become an ex parrot. I have cleaned many a fish and some critters in my time. You thank them for their sustenance and you pretty much move on. Do the fish upon having their flesh removed form their skeleton move onward to cleaner waters? If that makes ya happy, than I guess they do. But we really are not concerned about the future prospects of dead fish. As the goldfish circles the bowl we might say a prayer but we do so kind of out of jest. There is no way possible we could be the goldfish...We have too big of a brain to allow for that possibility. I have always loved the serenity prayer....I think it has to do with reading "Slaughter House Five" at too young of an age. Forever corrupted my brain. To dwell on something that we have no control over seems rather silly. Science says nothing happens, you simply become an ex parrot. But religion needs it's believers to jump through hoops and is somewhat exclusionary as to who gets the pass and who doesn't. I never have liked that. My God would never do such a thing. I choose to rot.

Rule -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 2:04:02 PM)
You might be reincarnated as a quartet of anteaters.

juliaoceania -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 2:08:57 PM)
quote: Do the fish upon having their flesh removed form their skeleton move onward to cleaner waters? If that makes ya happy, than I guess they do. It does not make me anything.... hence I said I have an absence of belief. In fact any scientist should have an absence of belief about something he can't prove nor disprove... quote: But religion needs it's believers to jump through hoops and is somewhat exclusionary as to who gets the pass and who doesn't. I never have liked that. My God would never do such a thing. I agree with this as it pertains to many religions, but not all preach that message. To be honest, I just can't be submissive to a male deity I can't see, hear, feel, nor touch....I can't stand rituals, they bore me. I would never make a good Christian, hell, I can't even find parking.... The thing is, perhaps consciousness, or the lifeforce, is made up of some special stuff that isn't matter based... we don't know because they are still figuring the math out and the jury is out. Some of the finest minds in the world are working on these questions, and I am extremely interested in their answers....we do not even know where our consciousness is located... it is truly a special thing, a really cool and awesome thing, that we even think about these things... Like I said, I don't have any answers...I am ok with that. I have learned to accept that. I have moved on from thinking I will have those answers...but if i am going to be calling Christians for thinking they have the answers, why do Atheists get a free pass for the same thing?

domiguy -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 2:24:06 PM)
Why does something miraculous have to happen when we die? Who started this notion?

marie2 -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 2:43:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Which will be why you snottily dismissed my post about this in response to your last fit of victim whining about this? It's a bit rich expecting atheists to prove that something doesn't exist when you're completely incapable of proving that it does, after all. I don't mean valid evidence specifically pertaining to whether god does or does not exist. Hello?? No one has either. I'm refering to the concept of "valid evidence" and it's application to a belief that cannot be proven. And you weren't dismissed by me, but I was not willing to re-debate the faith issue. It was already covered and covered and covered. In fact a mod stepped in and removed some of it from what I understand, as it was getting to be a nuisance to the thread. Feel free to actually read the thread in it's continuity instead of jumping in once every 10 pages and pulling something out of context for a quick drive-by.

domiguy -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 3:06:14 PM)
You are stretching the term of "valid evidence" to a ridiculous length. There are words to describe beliefs that cannot be proven....They are... "I choose to believe in beliefs that cannot be proven....I know to some that may sound stupid, in fact, I have to admit when you say it out loud, it kind of does sound a tad bit silly. But I have chosen to believe in these beliefs that cannot be proven because they give me a from of comfort." Try that one on for size, bucko! how does that work for you?

Jeffff -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 3:07:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Why does something miraculous have to happen when we die? Who started this notion? It has always been neccesary for the folks at the bottom of any scocial structure to have a reward. If not in this life, in the next. It is also handy to keep them in line. Don't start killing your "masters" or you won't go to heavan.

juliaoceania -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 3:10:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Why does something miraculous have to happen when we die? Who started this notion? If something happens to us when we die it is neither "miraculous" nor "supernatural"....those are terms that go against the natural world Edited to add.... Neanderthals were the first to ritualize the burying of their dead....lol

marie2 -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 3:10:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy You are stretching the term of "valid evidence" to a ridiculous length. Given that it hasn't even been discussed yet, this statement is a premature attempt to knock it out of the water without even hearing what my idea of it is. Doesn't surprise me.

brainiacsub -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/23/2010 3:17:18 PM)
Ah...and here is where I take exception to the way you painted atheists as "avoiding discussing 'valid evidence' like the plague." On at least 3 different occasions between this thread and julia's, I made the statement that there is a valid argument for faith as opposed to reason as a belief system, but that I wasn't going to supply both sides of this debate. I even gave the theists hints by stating that several of the atheists had alluded to the argument while they were playing devil's advocate. You cannot fault the atheists because the theists could not make a credible argument for their faith.

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