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Subs as sexists? - 4/13/2006 2:06:21 PM

Aimtoplease101

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I wanted to pass on a discussion in which I particpated in a different forum, to see how people here react. I wish I could claim originality of thinking on this topic, but to be honest I can't.

The discussion involved submissives' (mostly submissive men) differing perceptions of female dommes v. male dommes.

The submissive men (mostly straight, from what I could gather) generally applauded and supported female dominance, including physical discipline of male submissives. On the other hand, they had a dim view of males dominating, and especially disciplining, female subs. They found something offensive, or churlish, about that dynamic.

One submissive woman (who disagreed) raised an interesting issue. She questioned whether submissive men who disdained male domination of women were really being sexist. In other words, was it paternalistic, or condescending, to view it as acceptable for a dominant woman to dominate and punish a male sub, but to view it as "poor form" for a man to do the same to a woman?

My own view was that the male subs simply wanted to view the world in a way that most supported their own interest-- i.e., approval of dominant women. I didn't consider that to be necessarily sexist. In fact, I thought it was rather curious that a group of men who were voicing belief in female dominance to be called "sexist" in a way that implied that they somehow thought less of women.

What do you think?
Regards,
ATP

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RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/13/2006 2:15:45 PM

littlesarbonn

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What I think is that you're dealing with a very limited sample from which you are getting your information. I'm a male submissive. I don't care that there are male dominants with female submissives. It doesn't bother me a single bit. I don't have any less respect for the women, the men, the dominants, the submissives, switches or whatever. Sure, there are people who are intolerant of others, but that doesn't make it the mainstream thought process.

(in reply to Aimtoplease101)

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RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/13/2006 2:16:30 PM

BitaTruble

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quote:

She questioned whether submissive men who disdained male domination of women were really being sexist.

That is a classic definition of sexism. That it supports a viewpoint which may be held dear doesn't change the basic definition. Being sexist runs on both sides of the street. One can be sexist for or against females. Gender is a nonissue.

Celeste

_____________________________

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He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

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RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/13/2006 2:25:58 PM

starymists

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Call it what you will...I tend to view it as elitism any time someone thinks what they are doing is better than or superior to what other people practice. But then again, that runs around a lot

. In all seriousness, a lot of people want to view their world through their own perspective. That doesn't mean they should be looking down on the choices that other people live. Which is unfortunate, considering we are all practicing a lifestyle that is unaccepted in most of society...you'd think we'd be a tad more accepting of people who make choices different than us...

< Message edited by starymists -- 4/13/2006 2:28:24 PM >

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Post #: 4

RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/13/2006 2:56:17 PM

texturedshroom

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I don't hold any negative views toward male dominants either. At least not toward the ones that truly respect their partners (which is not a male-specific thing either). I personally would never want to be dominant, just as I'd probably never want to have plain vanilla sex again. But the worst type of bigot, I think, is the bigot who's in a minority group and is still bigotted against other ones.

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RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/13/2006 3:10:23 PM

IronBear

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Since slaves are sexy, I guess it could be argued that subs may be sexist.....

< Message edited by IronBear -- 4/13/2006 3:11:00 PM >

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RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/13/2006 3:18:47 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aimtoplease101
The submissive men (mostly straight, from what I could gather) generally applauded and supported female dominance, including physical discipline of male submissives. On the other hand, they had a dim view of males dominating, and especially disciplining, female subs. They found something offensive, or churlish, about that dynamic.

Odd. Most male subs I know don't spend much time thinking about female submission at all. They are very focused on female dominance and generally seem to have a live-and-let-live attitude when it comes to male doms and fem subs.

This theory seems pretty made-up from my experience but maybe it's just a different crowd?

Cin

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RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/13/2006 3:19:28 PM

Proprietrix

Posts: 756
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From: Ohio/West Virginia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aimtoplease101
The submissive men (mostly straight, from what I could gather) generally applauded and supported female dominance, including physical discipline of male submissives. On the other hand, they had a dim view of males dominating, and especially disciplining, female subs. They found something offensive, or churlish, about that dynamic.

I haven't seen this phenom. at all (but then my interactions tend to be real time, instead of over the computer. And I don't know which medium you're referring to.)
Most of the male submissives I know don't seem to carry any kind of opinion one way or the other of the male Dominants. If anything even *slight*, I *might* say that *sometimes* the male subs are quicker to call the female Dominants "Ma'am" than to call the male Dominants "Sir". But really, if I had to name a number, it'd be *maybe* 1% of the time that I see that happen.
The male subs I know show the same amount of respect to both male and female Dominants, regardless of the Doms' submissive's sex/gender.

(in reply to Aimtoplease101)

Post #: 8

RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/13/2006 3:25:36 PM

MstrssPassion

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I have only had one conversation, person to person, where it was expressed to me that he had difficulty being around the male dom/fem sub interaction.

This person had no difficulty being social with male dominants or female submissives but he own personal reaction to witnessing a female submissive bottoming to a man kicked in his natural tendency to be protective toward women.

This similar reaction on a much smaller family oriented scale was expressed to me by a submissive in a poly family that involved her, her switch sister & their master. The switch in the group never bottomed outside of a 'family' setting, meaning only the closest of friends... the full-time sub could not handle being present or even close enough to her her sister in a bdsm interaction. Her first instinct was to react in a protective manner. She would flinch at every sound of leather striking skin & nearly jump to her feet if she heard her cry out. This would take place even when it was their own owner carrying out the activity.

Maybe what was perceived as a sexist reaction was not that at all but rather just a way that person was naturally wired to respond.

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RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/13/2006 3:57:51 PM

DelightMachine

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Male domination of females kind of bores me. My mind is open, and I guess I could get interested in the subject if it were somehow made interesting, but I don't know how. It's hard to have any opinion at all about it. Frankly, it seems wierd to me that a bunch of male submissives would voice that opinion.

On the other hand, a BDSM club in New York City was once playing a video of a scene with a male dominant physically chastising and seeming to scare his submissive women. I had a visceral disgust for it because he was harsh and they seemed terrified. I absolutely loathe bullying, probably even more than most people, and I always have a burning, fierce desire to beat the bully. This was acting, but it seemed like bullying and I just hated seeing it.

I've had no problem watching scenes with male Dominants and female submissives, but I probably wouldn't like a harsh scene -- yet I know that's play (really, I knew the video was play, too). I also don't have any problem with the thought of male Dominants physically disciplining women -- although I'd probably rather not see it. Not my kink, that's all.

There's nothing to apologize for with likes and dislikes. If we're talking about women being actually abused by men, I'm probably readier to intervene than with a man abused by another man -- I mean, I might do it a little faster with a woman being abused or in a gray area I might decide to step in faster with an abused woman. Sexist? Sure. So what?

At one time I was under the control of (and in love with) a Domme who was being bothered by a somewhat deranged, somewhat dangerous guy. It never got to the point where I had to actually do anything, but I told her that if I ever saw her in danger, I would take action to protect her, no matter what she wanted. I told her it was simply a hard limit. Dom or sub, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. Sexist? Sure. So what?

Unsubmissive? Damn straight. So what? Certain obligations go with being a man. Period.

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Post #: 10

RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/13/2006 4:13:03 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Since slaves are sexy, I guess it could be argued that subs may be sexist.....

LOL, well put!

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Post #: 11

RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/13/2006 7:27:53 PM

EvilGeoff

Posts: 523
Joined: 8/24/2005
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My own personal experiences with male submissives have to be broken down into two categories, gay male submissives and het/bi mail submissives. Generally speaking the gay male submissives had no interest in the male Dom/female submissive dynamic at all. If they had any concern at all it was the het dynamic that squicked them.

Het/bi male submissives have not expressed (at least to me) any problems with the male Dom/female submissive dynamic. They show up at the events and play parties with their female Dominant partners and watch what the vast majority of others (male Dom/femsub) are doing, like the rest of us. *shrug*

YIK,
- Geoff

(in reply to Aimtoplease101)

Post #: 12

RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/13/2006 9:26:28 PM

Arpig

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I suspect that if straight male subs who are into female supremacy object to a male dom punishing a female sub, the basis of their objection would be based in that very concept of female supremacy.
I am sure there is many a Gorean master out there who sees the punishing of a male sub by a domina to be similarly "not cricket", and the view would be based on the perception of the proper positions of each gender relative to the other.
Those who do not hold to any view of gender-based supremacy would probably not have a problem with anybody being punished by anybody else....vive la difference and all that.

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RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/13/2006 11:29:04 PM

SweetPosession

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I've met a few submissives, both male and female, who expressed similar views. The males were mostly heterosexual, and while they adored pain play they felt that no man had the right to apply pain to any woman for any reason, consent be damned. The women I knew were lesbians, and expressed that men didn't "deserve" to have women submit to them.

I have also met a number of dominants, male and female, gay, streight, and everything in between. I have known Dominants of all ages, genders, and orientations who were loving and compassionate people, and who were (to my knowledge) good and respectful tops. These people absolutely deserve the opportunity to make submissives happy in their play, whoever they are.

I think this sexism comes from the fear within ourselves that we are bad people for wanting to hurt people, or that we are less of people for wanting to be hurt. We cannot channel that fear into rejection of one another. If a person uses the doubt within himself of his validity because he wants to be hurt, it's logical that he projects it as resentment for men who do not need this, and (even worse) men who need just the opposite. It is logical, but it is not right. Some submissive men feel ashamed in the presence of dominant men, and some dominant men look down on submissive men (and not in the way dominants generally assume superiority). This is the only thing that's wrong with us. We need what we need, and we are lucky to have a community which can help us to satisfy that need. But if we start supporting self-limiting beliefs, that community will not survive.

[/soap box]

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Post #: 14

RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/14/2006 8:22:06 AM

thetammyjo

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Not a "scene" experience but one of the professors on my campus teaching a human sexuality course in sociology where she looks at the variety of relationships ending with BDSM because it covers so many of the other dynamics. I help her with several of these so I'm reporting what she has told me are the reactions of her students. She has a few theories about the reactions but I suspect it may be a future book after more and more classes.

Men in class react very negatively to the male dom and female sub couples; women are split, most think that its the other woman's choice.

Single sub/bottom women however were well received as were the single top/dom men.

None of them get worked up about the male sub and female dom couples.

Single sub/bottom men were often ignored during question & answer periods.

Single dom/top women were often assumed to be prosb but that could fade if they weren't... pros tended to be be ignored once their profession came out.

Most of the students could relate best to switches -- idea of give and take in a relationship appealed to them.

I think a lot of this has to do with who volunteers for these educational events.

For years I struggled to get a variety of people for the events and routinely, dispite my best effort, got male dom/fem sub couples who used a lot of sexist language or discussed their children -- big problems that we tried to address by discussion and workshops before educational events.

After two negative reactions from a majority of the class to anyone (couple or single) they would not be invited back since the professor wanted positive but realistic models. I even had professors say "I don't want this couple" and it was always one of the male dom/fem sub ones. I felt so sad and frustrated - I think it added to my burn out.

Perhaps because I'm female and in a fem dom/male sub relationship more folks from similar backgrounds were comfortable volunteering? I know that I often, very often, turned to other panelists and tried to get everyone who volunteered a chance to speak even if it meant ignoring the hands in the audience until I felt everyone on the panel had a chance to share on a subject.

I don't organize these any more, haven't for a few years actually, but I still volunteer to do them. In fact, Fox and I wil be at one the last week in April.

I may have to talk to this professor and say we can't do this anymore because its stressful to be seen as a representative of an entire group when I can only be me. But that teacher in me sees her class and the panels as important steps in educating people about the safe and consentual variety of human sexuality.

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RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/14/2006 8:50:34 AM

DelightMachine

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TammyJo,

Thanks for posting that. That was absolutely fascinating.

Here are two guesses about what the student's reaction means:

1. First, negative reaction to the male Dom/fem sub couples seems terribly p.c., but maybe it's something like my reaction to seeing a video where the sub women seem to be fearful -- it's easier to feel like someone's being abused. Maybe the male Dom/fem sub dynamic just feels too close to negative situations of abuse in vanilla society.

2. I was surprised at the lack of response to single male subs and by the acceptance of the Dominant women/submissive male relationships. Really surprised. No, it's not surprise -- it's shock. THAT is the relationship that I always thought would turn stomachs more. Wow. Maybe it's more accepted because there are so many mothers raising children on their own now. Could it be that the students were more uncomfortable talking about that kind of relationship?

Could you tell us what the professors thought about the student reactions to the various types? Maybe they have more insight into it because they're talking more to the students afterward, although after years of doing this, your post probably reflects what they've already told you. I'd be really interested in how it goes this year.

Again, thanks for posting that. It's fascinating.

_____________________________

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RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/14/2006 12:26:55 PM

thetammyjo

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Apologizing in advance if I muck up the quotation format here -- I'm trying but I'm an ancient history, this computer stuff is so new to me! (*grin*)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

TammyJo,

Thanks for posting that. That was absolutely fascinating.

Here are two guesses about what the student's reaction means:

1. First, negative reaction to the male Dom/fem sub couples seems terribly p.c., but maybe it's something like my reaction to seeing a video where the sub women seem to be fearful -- it's easier to feel like someone's being abused. Maybe the male Dom/fem sub dynamic just feels too close to negative situations of abuse in vanilla society.

The professor theorizers that the idea that a woman would chose that role is foreign to the men because they are in college with women who do not seem submissive to them. Perhaps their ideas about what submissive means is too narrow. The young women though just see it as a choice or as a continuation of traditional roles whether they like those or not its just nothing weird.

I fear its also the result of the poorer quality of male dom/fem sub couples who've volunteered over the years. I've known excellent couples of this group who would good in such classrooms but those are not the ones who volunteered.

quote:

2. I was surprised at the lack of response to single male subs and by the acceptance of the Dominant women/submissive male relationships. Really surprised. No, it's not surprise -- it's shock. THAT is the relationship that I always thought would turn stomachs more. Wow. Maybe it's more accepted because there are so many mothers raising children on their own now. Could it be that the students were more uncomfortable talking about that kind of relationship?

Could you tell us what the professors thought about the student reactions to the various types? Maybe they have more insight into it because they're talking more to the students afterward, although after years of doing this, your post probably reflects what they've already told you. I'd be really interested in how it goes this year.

Again, thanks for posting that. It's fascinating.

Single men, the professor thinks, get ignored because they just fall into the "men wanting sex" category in students minds... the "submissiveness" seems like a fake to get babes.

I think that it goes along with the fact that pro doms get dismissed and ignored -- the students are more open to the idea of it being relationship not just sex (or what they see as sex).

The professor also think that Dom women/ sub men though seem more in line with romantic notions or perhaps with their ideas that women control access to sex; a man who won't accept a woman's 'no' is seen as an abuser and those are not likely the men who would take this sort of course.

It might have a lot to do with me and Fox though because we are relatively well-spoken members of that group of people and we are often told in the middle of classes that we seem so loving and romantic (which we are, it isn't a show).

I also think we see more fem dom images (stereotypes and all) in popular culture ranging from fashion ads to sex magazines to movies and tv so its really not that foreign to the average college age student.

Of course these are the same students whom the professor reports talk about their "affairs" and numerous partners who don't know about each other (cheating is very common and rather accepted she tells me) but just can't grasp the concept of poly very well.

*SHRUG*

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RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/14/2006 12:28:00 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetPosession

I've met a few submissives, both male and female, who expressed similar views. The males were mostly heterosexual, and while they adored pain play they felt that no man had the right to apply pain to any woman for any reason, consent be damned. The women I knew were lesbians, and expressed that men didn't "deserve" to have women submit to them.

I just have trouble wrapping my mind around how some people can be open-minded but restict that openmindedness to small corners of the world they deem "ok".

This is the type of thinking you see with homophobic males who think gay males should burn in hell for their "sin" but girl-on-girl action is "cool". Ugghhh, I just have to walk away from people like this or my brain hits critical mass!

Cin

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RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/14/2006 12:43:13 PM

thetammyjo

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I should add that I'm not saying that everyone is cool in this classes or reactions these ways just that in general this is what the professor sees and keeps track of. The students fill out anonymous cards that only list their age and sex then comments; its part of her research.

There have been a few students in these classes over the years that just react negatively to it all.

Fox, myself and a lesbian who identifies as having a "slave's heart" were at one. A woman stood up and said to the other woman and Fox "you have been brainwashed" and I never got a chance to respond because Fox and this other woman went nuts. The professor told me that the next day (they discuss things the following class after a panel) that the other students in class told that one woman that she was wrong and they used examples from us and from their own lives as evidence as well as their readings.

It is important to keep in mind that this is not a required course. Its a sociology course and their are other human sexuality courses via psychology and the health sciences program. I'm sure each course draws different students.

I've been to two psychology courses but the professor introduced us as folks with paraphilias -- I couldn't get volunteers after that. The health science professor refused to introduce the subject before we arrived and the students were poorly prepared so we also stopped "helping" him after a few years.

There are other colleges and universities which have panelists for their human sexuality courses. Its a good experience but it isn't easy the first few times and you always have to be emotionally prepared to handle the weird or insulting question from time to time. These same classes often look for transgendered, gay/lesbian, and poly panelists too.

On average the students are 18-22 years old, away from home to school for the first time, and much of what they think of as BDSM comes from music videos, video games, and other mass media. I think its great to give them another view.

But I'm a college teacher so I'm sure I'm highly biased.

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Post #: 19

RE: Subs as sexists? - 4/14/2006 12:51:18 PM

Submotive

Posts: 440
Joined: 9/9/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aimtoplease101

I wanted to pass on a discussion in which I particpated in a different forum, to see how people here react. I wish I could claim originality of thinking on this topic, but to be honest I can't.

The discussion involved submissives' (mostly submissive men) differing perceptions of female dommes v. male dommes.

The submissive men (mostly straight, from what I could gather) generally applauded and supported female dominance, including physical discipline of male submissives. On the other hand, they had a dim view of males dominating, and especially disciplining, female subs. They found something offensive, or churlish, about that dynamic.

One submissive woman (who disagreed) raised an interesting issue. She questioned whether submissive men who disdained male domination of women were really being sexist. In other words, was it paternalistic, or condescending, to view it as acceptable for a dominant woman to dominate and punish a male sub, but to view it as "poor form" for a man to do the same to a woman?

My own view was that the male subs simply wanted to view the world in a way that most supported their own interest-- i.e., approval of dominant women. I didn't consider that to be necessarily sexist. In fact, I thought it was rather curious that a group of men who were voicing belief in female dominance to be called "sexist" in a way that implied that they somehow thought less of women.

What do you think?

i have no idea what male subs, in general, think about female subs. Actually i find it rather amusing that they would find it "offensive" since, although we do live in a more liberated society, men still basically dominate the world. i wonder if these same male submissives would feel so "protective" if they were competing for a job against a female sub.

Personally, i have a difficult time wrapping my mind around the concept of a true male submissive - one that isn't a "do me sub" or one that doesn't have a lot of emotional issues.

_____________________________

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