RE: Feminism and submission

RE: Feminism and submission (Full Version)

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Nineveh -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:34:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: submissivemale22 do you even think about the things you post? a yin and yang... similar because they are equal portions? perhaps a circle and square are equal because they are both shapes. night and day are both words.... its absolutely ridiculous. either you affirm the concept that women are equal to men or you are not a feminist. I've affirmed that in every post. You just can't accept that femininity WANTS to surrender to masculinity. Submissives are choosing to submit to dominance. Just because cultural pressures have done a switch on you doesn't mean the mainstream is crazy. Marriages are failing at a record rate because people can't decide which one is in control. The henpecked husband will never be an animal in bed, he's been beaten into submission. Feminism proper makes women think that if they are being submissive they aren't being equal and that is just completely fucking wrong. Some femininity does, some masculinity wants to surrender to femininity. There are innate differences between the sexes, but it's not about who is in control, it's more about how they are in control.

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:38:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nineveh Some femininity does, some masculinity wants to surrender to femininity. There are innate differences between the sexes, but it's not about who is in control, it's more about how they are in control. I think I understand what you are getting at but you are mincing words in my opinion. What I think you mean is that some men are feminine and desire to surrender to masculine women, and conversely some masculine women wish to dominate submissive men. Which is great and fine by me. Those people should absolutely seek each other and their own mutual satisfaction. I do not speak of these things in terms of actual gender, I was speaking archetypally.

NorthernGent -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:40:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine Feminism proper makes women think that if they are being submissive they aren't being equal and that is just completely fucking wrong. Yes....an unequal share in authority does not necessarily equate to an unequal share in value as a human being. Agreed. Although some feminists would argue that authority is irretrievably bound up with value...because authority suggests a pre-requisite level of knowledge/skills/experience that those who aren't in a position of authority do not hold. So I suppose the OP would have to ponder this before arriving at a conclusion.

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:43:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Although some feminists would argue that authority is irretrievably bound up with value...because authority suggests a pre-requisite level of knowledge/skills/experience that those who aren't in a position of authority do not hold. So I suppose the OP would have to ponder this before arriving at a conclusion. They might suggest that but... [;)] Authority has no implication other than control. You can grant authority to anyone regardless of qualification.

gungadin09 -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:47:39 AM)
i'm a feminist. i think that there is a tremendous strength in submission. It is a quiet strength that has to do with self discipline and altruism, but it is strength nonetheless. Strength, power, defiance, and courage don't always have to be flashy. i am nobody's victim. i don't believe that i'm inferior. i am making a choice. It's an unconventional choice that demonstrates my right to decide what happens to my own body. Making this choice proves that i think for myself rather than let society tell me how to act, even to the point that what i do may be very unpopular. i don't think that feminism and BDSM are mutually exclusive. i think you're fine. pam

NorthernGent -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:47:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine You can grant authority to anyone regardless of qualification. You could..... But by and large.....in the world in which we live.....authority is obtained through attaining a level of skill/knowledge/experience....and it follows that we place value on such things....and it follows thus authority is bound up with value.

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:50:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine You can grant authority to anyone regardless of qualification. You could..... But by and large.....in the world in which we live.....authority is obtained through attaining a level of skill/knowledge/experience....and it follows that we place value on such things....and it follows thus authority is bound up with value. Ever met a mallcop with an attitude? [:D]

heartcream -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:54:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine I see no conflict at all between submission and feminism. I actually consider myself an ultra-feminist. The actual feminist movement is somewhat terribly misguided, although the intention was good. What makes women strong and powerful is not being like men. A woman's real social power lies in her femininity, grace and ease. This is why I reject depersonalization. I want to hyper-personalize women who are having this exact conflict. The premise of feminism is fine, the teachings are largely shit. Ed: (Stupid fast reply) I dont understand all of this but I really like where you are coming from here.

Nineveh -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:55:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: Nineveh Some femininity does, some masculinity wants to surrender to femininity. There are innate differences between the sexes, but it's not about who is in control, it's more about how they are in control. I think I understand what you are getting at but you are mincing words in my opinion. What I think you mean is that some men are feminine and desire to surrender to masculine women, and conversely some masculine women wish to dominate submissive men. Which is great and fine by me. Those people should absolutely seek each other and their own mutual satisfaction. I do not speak of these things in terms of actual gender, I was speaking archetypally. Nope. Although that is sometimes true as well. submission and dominance don't match to gender to me. As I said, Men and Women tend to dominate in different ways.

Nineveh -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:58:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine You can grant authority to anyone regardless of qualification. You could..... But by and large.....in the world in which we live.....authority is obtained through attaining a level of skill/knowledge/experience....and it follows that we place value on such things....and it follows thus authority is bound up with value. I have not found that to be the case at all. I have often been in a position where someone with very little value was in a position of authority over me (usually professional situations) sometimes because of connections, sometimes because of seniority. Authority and value really don't connect, whether in a D/s sense or otherwise.

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:59:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nineveh Nope. Although that is sometimes true as well. submission and dominance don't match to gender to me. As I said, Men and Women tend to dominate in different ways. As I said I wasn't talking about men or women. I was talking about masculine and feminine archetypes which do in fact correlate directly to dominant and submissive archetypes. The actual gender of the person is irrelevant.

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 2:01:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartcream I dont understand all of this but I really like where you are coming from here. Thanks. [:D] I'd be happy to clarify here if you have a specific question. I also do generally respond to mail.

Nineveh -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 2:02:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: Nineveh Nope. Although that is sometimes true as well. submission and dominance don't match to gender to me. As I said, Men and Women tend to dominate in different ways. As I said I wasn't talking about men or women. I was talking about masculine and feminine archetypes which do in fact correlate directly to dominant and submissive archetypes. The actual gender of the person is irrelevant. To explain my point. A princess, not a bratty princess but a truly regal princess who inspires obedience and devotion is a decidedly feminine archetype. She's also very much in control. She's distinctly different from an Alpha Male type.

NorthernGent -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 2:05:02 AM)
General reply for the OP..... You must have read de Beauvior...based on feminism being an idea that you hold dear.....The Second Sex arguably the most significant feminist text of the twentieth century. The core of her argument draws on Hegel's dialectic of the Master and the Slave. Put simply....the argument is that people come to see themselves as autonomous agents by dominating other people....so for de Beauvoir in a world where women are denied freedom that women is defined and differentiated with reference to man and not he with reference to her; she is the incidental as opposed to the essential. And the conclusion she arrived at was that some women do not want freedom because there are certain advantages associated with the denial of freedom; they prefer the security of a life defined by the man. In sum: de Beauvoir would not agree that the freedom to choose a life with a man who is the dominant partner.....is in tune with feminism.

heartcream -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 2:09:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: heartcream I dont understand all of this but I really like where you are coming from here. Thanks. [:D] I'd be happy to clarify here if you have a specific question. I also do generally respond to mail. Well, okay great thanks. Maybe you could explain a bit about this: quote: This is why I reject depersonalization. I want to hyper-personalize women who are having this exact conflict.

Zevar -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 2:09:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB Ok. So this is an extremely important issue to me and one that I've been avoiding/struggling with/failing directly at since I discovered I was deeply submissive. I have read many, many articles and listened to many Dan Savage podcasts and I cannot figure out how to solve it. I can't believe I haven't thought to ask all of you before, but now I have so here goes: I am a feminist. What I mean by feminism isn't hugely important, except that I am the kind of feminist who is mad when men are misogynistic (outside of consensual BDSM contexts) and wants vanilla couples to go down on each other a roughly equal amount :) I have two moms who have always been my version of the ideal couple: completely equal, no gender roles, both talented at different things but sharing in most responsibilities. Feminism and powerful women have been an important part of my life for as long as I can remember. What I really want to do is figure out how to reconcile (truly reconcile - not abandon) all of that with my desire to submit to a man and serve him, frequently in degrading, objectifying ways. So really truly seriously, does anyone know how to do that? Any feminists in the house? [:)] To begin this reply I will state an obvious factor in that the ideology of Feminism and the submission of any female to a man are contrary one to the other. I realize you know this as factual based on your identifying as a Feminist and having been exposed to powerful Feminist women throughout your life as you noted. The fact the you appear willing to discuss this dilemma openly is an excellent beginning to arrive at some form of resolution that is acceptable for yourself. NOTE: I say appear as I only have your words to gauge what I will say in reply to your words. With that clarified I will say, the fact that you have had the opportunity to know the reality of an equally operable relationship that does not and cannot exist between a man and a woman sounds like something that has enriched your life. Keep in mind that the distinct differences between men and women excludes such from ever synthesizing as it does in same gender relating. Further the fact that you recognize you value being reared by two moms is not something to marginalize. Not that you marginalized this fact. I simply wanted to note the awesome achievement that you were privy to in your life. Also at the same time though it sounds like you feel conflicted by your personal choices in that they do serve to contribute to your internal conflict. The innate differences in a opposite gender relationships exclude the male brain from knowing how to function in any other manner than how it is biologically designed to operate, perceive and react to the world through the lenses of a man in response to the female brain. Similarly the female brain functions in the innate manner that excludes achieving the same outcome in mating or paring with the opposite gender in any alternate form than how the female brain naturally functions. The solution to your dilemma of how to rectify your desire for submission to a man does not at all diminish what you have experienced regarding the compatibilities you experienced between your two moms. What the two of them achieved does not have the power to directly dictate what or how you will feel within yourself unless you allow it to. Due to the fact that we are all individuals it is quite natural for you to have formed your individual ideologies when it pertains to the dynamics you seek between yourself and the man you choose to relate with. Just like your two moms demonstrated what brought the two of them contentment and satisfaction, you too have the right to live as you choose is right for you, even if that choice includes submission to a man. You differ from the ideology that you have been exposed to on some level due to perhaps your innate desires that you have discovered that serve toward your contentment and wholeness. Perhaps though you might want to reconsider your position regarding the 2 opposite contexts and simply accept that differences only equate what we believe them to be. Celebrate your individuality just like it sounds your two moms do. Clearly each woman who identifies as a Feminist goes against the grain of the fabric of society and are still able to maintain a strength that has contributed to who you are today. That in IMO is worthy of embracing any differences for what they both uniquely offer. Determine to refuse to attempt to reframe either context to be anything other than what they naturally are. Dare to live as your two moms taught you. Strong and defined only by what you know is right for you even if on some level your choices are in conflict with the ideology of Feminism as you understand it. Finally in closing, clearly I fully agree that there are no exceptions when it pertains to all weak willed misogynistic pathetic specimens of a man. Sharp rebuke them indeed. Mentally or as deemed appropriate in the moment of course. After all it is not a loss to refuse what you know to not be in your personal value system.

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 2:12:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nineveh quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: Nineveh Nope. Although that is sometimes true as well. submission and dominance don't match to gender to me. As I said, Men and Women tend to dominate in different ways. As I said I wasn't talking about men or women. I was talking about masculine and feminine archetypes which do in fact correlate directly to dominant and submissive archetypes. The actual gender of the person is irrelevant. To explain my point. A princess, not a bratty princess but a truly regal princess who inspires obedience and devotion is a decidedly feminine archetype. She's also very much in control. She's distinctly different from an Alpha Male type. Thank you. You make my point for me as well. This is absolutely right. As I initially stated a woman's true social power lies in her femininity, grace and ease. But that regal princess who inspires obedience, deep in her feminine heart wants more than anything to be taken by a more powerful masculine force. Ares and Aphrodite, Mars and Venus, etc... You seem to equate social influence with dominance, I'd say the princess's power comes from her rank and title foremost. Beyond that even she has only her femininity, grace and vulnerability. A truly regal and manly princess wasn't on your mind was it? [;)]

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 2:24:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartcream Well, okay great thanks. Maybe you could explain a bit about this: quote: This is why I reject depersonalization. I want to hyper-personalize women who are having this exact conflict. I'll try to briefly but this gets into my whole methodology. I strongly suspect that depersonalization is desired most by women who are fighting with themselves to be something that they are not in this "man's world", generally due to the cultural messages of "feminism". Women are actually at their most powerful and have the most social control when they are vulnerable, feminine and free... and completely comfortable with that. I teach control through control. I want to show them that through control they can allow themselves to be all those things and actually end up more powerful than they would be by "protecting themselves". A woman can be my slut, but in the world I want her to be one kick ass chick and this is the key. I love to control powerful women, and a woman in control of her femininity is the most powerful kind. As much as it might seem that more intelligent women have less issues with this, I actually find the exact opposite to be true. The brighter the girl, generally the more conflicted... until someone shows her the light or she figures it out for herself.

Nineveh -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 2:24:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: Nineveh quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: Nineveh Nope. Although that is sometimes true as well. submission and dominance don't match to gender to me. As I said, Men and Women tend to dominate in different ways. As I said I wasn't talking about men or women. I was talking about masculine and feminine archetypes which do in fact correlate directly to dominant and submissive archetypes. The actual gender of the person is irrelevant. To explain my point. A princess, not a bratty princess but a truly regal princess who inspires obedience and devotion is a decidedly feminine archetype. She's also very much in control. She's distinctly different from an Alpha Male type. Thank you. You make my point for me as well. This is absolutely right. As I initially stated a woman's true social power lies in her femininity, grace and ease. But that regal princess who inspires obedience, deep in her feminine heart wants more than anything to be taken by a more powerful masculine force. Ares and Aphrodite, Mars and Venus, etc... You seem to equate social influence with dominance, I'd say the princess's power comes from her rank and title foremost. Beyond that even she has only her femininity, grace and vulnerability. A truly regal and manly princess wasn't on your mind was it? [;)] Nope, I wasn't thinking a manly princess. I think you are projecting when you assume that she wants to surrender though.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 2:25:50 AM)
FR OP, let's pretend for a minute that you were bisexual/gay and submitting to a woman (bear with me here). The issue with feminism wouldn't arise then, would it? You would be ceding control to said theoretical woman because you wanted to; questions of gender equality wouldn't arise. So why, if you replace that theoretical woman with a man, should there suddenly be a problem? Isn't that a bit...misandristic? (I think that's the word.) You are giving control to a person, not their gender. Your partner is accepting that control from a person, not a gender.

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