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Bondage, D/s, Sadomasochism & Fetishes - 9/20/2004 6:18:21 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Another thread inspired me to look up the definition of fetishes...

The Deviant Dictionary defines fetish and fetishism:

In anthropology, a fetish is an object to which powers are attributed that go beyond its natural ones; when the term is extended to sexuality, it indicates an object not naturally connected with sexual reproduction that nonetheless causes sexual arousal for some people. As Freud (1953:153) puts it, the fetish 'bears some relation to the normal sexual object but is entirely unsuited to serve the normal sexual aim' (by which, of course, he means the reproductive aim). The best known object fetishes are for items of clothing, especially those made out of particular materials like fur, leather and rubber, and boots and shoes. However, if the notion of a fetish is extended to include activities, then SM, which consists almost entirely of activities 'unsuited to serve the normal sexual aim', appears as one big fetish. For further discussion see under Fetishism in the Boundaries article on the Dynamics and Definitions Sourcesheet.

Note that originally 'fetish' was used of the object itself: a particular artifact would be a fetish. But in its sexual use it usually means the propensity to be aroused by a certain object, as in 'Mary has a fetish for dirty socks', and the object is called 'the fetish object'. 'Fetishism' is the propensity to be aroused by a fetish object.


____________________________________________________________

Interesting. So how many of you agree with this view of fetishism?

What gets me is 'unsuited to serve the normal sexual aim' (read reporductive).

So by that token, is homosexuality a fetish?

What if I were to say: "My boy cannot get a hard on without me ordering it, therefore, Dominance is not a fetish but rather necessary for normal sexual (read reproductive) activity.

I just thought we could toss this little ball around. Play nice!!

- LA

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RE: Bondage, D/s, Sadomasochism & Fetishes - 9/20/2004 7:05:25 PM   
GoddessJules


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Angelika,

I'm having a brain fart. . .by
quote:

As Freud (1953:153) puts it, the fetish 'bears some relation to the normal sexual object but is entirely unsuited to serve the normal sexual aim' (by which, of course, he means the reproductive aim).


does that imply
1) That the person who is doing the spankie spankie not doing it for procreation purposes?
or
2) That the fetish is tied into some sexual aspects of the person in question, but is not conducive to orgasm?

*scratches head*

Once I understand that part. . .I'll start my response.

smoochies

~Jules~

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RE: Bondage, D/s, Sadomasochism & Fetishes - 9/20/2004 7:13:06 PM   
LadyBeckett


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If you are a Fetisthist you have a fetish and a speech impediment.

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Lady Beckett

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"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

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RE: Bondage, D/s, Sadomasochism & Fetishes - 9/20/2004 9:59:16 PM   
CuckoIdsIave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett

If you are a Fetisthist you have a fetish and a speech impediment.


love that, true true...

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RE: Bondage, D/s, Sadomasochism & Fetishes - 9/20/2004 10:14:30 PM   
newflowers


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quote:

As Freud (1953:153) puts it, the fetish 'bears some relation to the normal sexual object but is entirely unsuited to serve the normal sexual aim' (by which, of course, he means the reproductive aim).


I disagree with Freud on the grounds that the fundamentalist, Victoria view of sex - for procreation purposes only, the sort of lie back and think of English and fulfill ones wifely duty with mistresses and whore available for actual pleasure, is, thank goodness a thing of the past.

In my view, "the normal sexual aim" is that of mutual pleasure, so between consenting and compatible adults, pretty much anything goes. If sex were only for reproductive pruposes - what a waste, yet many women have lived that way for centuries.

In answer to the posed question - I do not agree with the definition with my main objection being the use of the "unsuitable" as I question who makes the determination for suitability.

newflowers

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RE: Bondage, D/s, Sadomasochism & Fetishes - 9/20/2004 11:31:51 PM   
merrymasochist


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quote:

In answer to the posed question - I do not agree with the definition with my main objection being the use of the "unsuitable" as I question who makes the determination for suitability.


i agree with newflowers's reply...

the concept of sex only for the sake of procreation is long past...

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RE: Bondage, D/s, Sadomasochism & Fetishes - 9/21/2004 5:01:33 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessJules
does that imply
1) That the person who is doing the spankie spankie not doing it for procreation purposes?
or
2) That the fetish is tied into some sexual aspects of the person in question, but is not conducive to orgasm?

*scratches head*

Once I understand that part. . .I'll start my response.


Jules, my interpretation of Freud’s narrow-mindedness is that if the sexual activity you are doing (oral sex, spanking, book licking) is not going to ultimately get someone pregnant, then it is a fetish.

Interesting, no? I call it a little welcomed diversity in the bedroom!

I understand that the spirit of the word fetish is to distinguish sex from kink but I find that the way this definition is worded means that everything that has the potential to arouse you that other then male penetrating female is a fetish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: newflowers
I disagree with Freud on the grounds that the fundamentalist, Victoria view of sex - for procreation purposes only, the sort of lie back and think of English and fulfill ones wifely duty with mistresses and whore available for actual pleasure, is, thank goodness a thing of the past.


I disagree with just about everything that came out of Freud’s mouth!

And for the record, some of the accounts I’ve read of the Victorian days were not so vanilla. I think that kink has been around for a long time, it’s just much more public now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: newflowers
In my view, "the normal sexual aim" is that of mutual pleasure, so between consenting and compatible adults, pretty much anything goes. If sex were only for reproductive pruposes - what a waste, yet many women have lived that way for centuries.


Excellent view. It’s a holistic view that deal with the whole sex pleasure and fulfillment package.

quote:

ORIGINAL: newflowers
In answer to the posed question - I do not agree with the definition with my main objection being the use of the "unsuitable" as I question who makes the determination for suitability.

I agree with you newflowers. I’m not so fond of the definition myself. However, the term was defined (coined? Hmm… needs further research) by Freud as such and the Deviant Dictionary (which is such an amazing resource btw) simply offered us a analytical view of the word.

When I started this post, I was trying to define fetish in order to respond to someone who posts a way too narrow definition of fetish. Now I find myself with one so vague and all encompassing that the word fetish has lost it’s meaning.

I guess what I’m getting at is, by this definition, isn’t everyone a fetishist? And isn’t everything that makes us tingle in our nether regions, a fetish?

- LA

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RE: Bondage, D/s, Sadomasochism & Fetishes - 9/22/2004 8:16:11 AM   
Destinysskeins


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Greetings,

*smiles* i'm not surprised that most here are not flattered by Frued's assessment of the term fetish. But then i'm not a fan of Freud and identify much more strongly with Jung's concepts & theories.

The DSM defines a fetish - or more specifically a paraphilia as a object or act that is necessary to the participant in order to achieve sexual release or stimulation. However, this in itself is not sufficient to rate a diagnosis. Distress in the participant within society must be present for a diagnosis to be rendered necessary.

The Paraphilias are characterized by recurrent, intense sexual urges, fantasies, or behaviors that involve unusual objects, activities, or situations and cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. [493]

Note three things: the objects or activities are "unusual"; distress, even without impaired functioning, constitutes sexual mental disorder (psychic pain is a noxious condition to be remedied); and the fantasies, urges, or behaviors--not something else--cause the distress. DSM-IV lists eight numerically coded paraphilias: Exhibitionism, Fetishism, Frotteurism, Pedophilia, Sexual Masochism, Sexual Sadism, Transvestic Fetishism, and Voyeurism. DSM-IV expands its list of paraphilias in its diagnostic category "Paraphilia Not Otherwise Specified" (532), adding telephone scatologia, necrophilia, partialism, zoophilia, coprophilia, urophilia, and klismaphilia.14

DSM-IV asserts that being unusual (deviant) is necessary for sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors to be paraphiliac, but not sufficient: "Neither deviant behavior (e.g., political, religious, or sexual) nor conflicts that are primarily between the individual and society are mental disorders" (xxii). There must also be distress or impairment in functioning (xxi). But if it is unlikely that there could be sexual deviance but no conflict with society's sexual norms, it is also unlikely that there could be sexual deviance but no distress. To the extent that this distress is exogenous, no one qualifies as a paraphiliac. This is paradoxical. Paraphilias are sexual mental disorders for DSM-IV in part because they are unusual; but in virtue of being unusual, their associated distress might be exogenous, which blocks the diagnosis.


Basically what is meant by exogenous distress is the participant's act of internalizing the stigmas prevalent in mainstream society in regards to their paraphilia. For example, a masochist who needs pain inflicted upon his/her body in order to achieve sexual release might internalize society's views of such and thus either not seek out sexual companionship or participate in non-sadistic sexual play (thereby depriving themselves of sexual release) in order to appear 'normal' to themselves & others. In doing so, they are suppressing a portion of themselves that will invariably appear in other aspects of their lifes be it depression, frustration, anger, etc.

So really - it's not society who is causing this distress but the participants inability to understand their own desires and put aside the societal influences present.

That leads me into Jung's views on this matter....

Try pulling up Google searches for Jung's views of fetishism. It's hard, there's not an abundance - now try the same with Freud.

This is because Jung did not view these activities to be abnormal. Rather, he viewed them to be a portion of what he referred to as the 'shadow'. The shadow, according to Jung, is a part of our unconcious where we dump those parts of us that we can not conciously define & cope with. If the issues contained within this shadow are not dealt with then they begin to manifest themselves in varying manners within our day to day lives. He proposed embracing these issues, understanding them and where they might arise from and coping with them conciously. Thus, if a need for a specific object in order to attain sexual fulfillment is present then that 'dark side' or 'shadow' should be embraced and fulfilled rather than suppressed by our concious psyche.

To go on with the pyschiatric evaulation of this - it would be possible to eventually 'un-condition' oneself for the need of this object once the base of the fetish is understand should that be desired. However, it's my opinion that this would only work if the subject genuinely prefers the absence of the fetish for themselves and is not doing such out of an internalization of societal influence. Otherwise the fetish is embraced and explored within the context and familiarity of others who share the same fetish or are open to such. In doing such, one is spared the harmful side effects of suppressing their 'shadow' and is not affected in their interactions with society and thus are not diagnosable as 'paraphiliacs' and are, in fact, participating in normal, healthy sexual expression.

_____________________________

Wilted petals fall from a rose like bitters tears wrung from a heart whose dreams have shattered. What hope for the future can be seen by eyes that are darkened with sorrow neverending?

i'm not manic-depressive, i just have an elliptical personality

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RE: Bondage, D/s, Sadomasochism & Fetishes - 9/22/2004 6:50:45 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Destinysskeins
This is because Jung did not view these activities to be abnormal. Rather, he viewed them to be a portion of what he referred to as the 'shadow'. The shadow, according to Jung, is a part of our unconcious where we dump those parts of us that we can not conciously define & cope with. If the issues contained within this shadow are not dealt with then they begin to manifest themselves in varying manners within our day to day lives. He proposed embracing these issues, understanding them and where they might arise from and coping with them conciously. Thus, if a need for a specific object in order to attain sexual fulfillment is present then that 'dark side' or 'shadow' should be embraced and fulfilled rather than suppressed by our concious psyche.


I have just put "Read more Jung" on my to-do list. Ok wait. After I have completed my thesis! Damn...

Destinysskeins... Merci beaucoup for this.

So I guess it's a good thing that I embrace my shoe fetish and bring it out of the shadows and fill my life with as much shoes as makes me happy so that I walk towards total balance in my life... in sexy Italian leather might I add!

And yes, when I buy new shoes, I usually have to release a little sexual excitement! That is when a sub boy is so very handy!! I just tell him his name is Manolo for the evening <weg>

- LA




Attachment (1)

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RE: Bondage, D/s, Sadomasochism & Fetishes - 9/23/2004 11:43:01 AM   
Destinysskeins


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You're very welcome! Yes, it's certainly a good thing that You embrace Your fetish and invite those who share it to join You. Unless, the subbie boys don't like it which might be distressing to them.....though it wouldn't be if they're into forced play as then it would be fulfilling their fetish as well. *grins* My, oh, my isn't the interweaving of kinks wonderful!?

Oh, and those are some really cute shoes (though i wouldn't be able to stand the pointy toes for very long - blame my long, freaky alien toes! ) *laughs* Thank goodness i don't have a foot/shoe fetish!

Well wishes!

_____________________________

Wilted petals fall from a rose like bitters tears wrung from a heart whose dreams have shattered. What hope for the future can be seen by eyes that are darkened with sorrow neverending?

i'm not manic-depressive, i just have an elliptical personality

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RE: Bondage, D/s, Sadomasochism & Fetishes - 9/24/2004 10:15:49 AM   
Suleiman


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I have a strong bondage fetish. It's sitting on my altar, right next to my money fetish!

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Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

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RE: Bondage, D/s, Sadomasochism & Fetishes - 9/26/2004 11:38:48 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Suleiman

I have a strong bondage fetish. It's sitting on my altar, right next to my money fetish!


Huh? Now would that make you a money Dom? ;)

- LA

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RE: Bondage, D/s, Sadomasochism & Fetishes - 9/27/2004 2:41:10 AM   
Suleiman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Huh? Now would that make you a money Dom? ;)



Gods above I wish that were so! I could use the extra income!

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Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

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RE: Bondage, D/s, Sadomasochism & Fetishes - 9/27/2004 2:49:24 AM   
Suleiman


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Actually, a more recent reinterpretation of the sexual fetish is the idea of the fetish as a form of sexual dysfunction - essentially any thing or ritual outside of the sex act itself which is required for the fetishist to be able to perform (as opposed to various forms of "kink" where such a ritual or object is desireable but not nessesary). Note that, under this definition, certian forms of vanilla sex become fetishistic behavior, in that there is a type of dysfunction which arises from having sex one way and one way only (example - missionary position, in the dark, with pajamas on) to the point that any variation from this ritual renders the person unable to perform. This would then be defined as a missionary fetish (as opposed to having sexual fantasies about christian prosetylizers, which, while very amusing, would be a kink rather than a fetish).

Okay, I'm rambling. I really should go to bed (but I dont wanna)

G'night y'all.

~S

_____________________________

Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

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RE: Bondage, D/s, Sadomasochism & Fetishes - 9/27/2004 4:57:51 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Suleiman

Actually, a more recent reinterpretation of the sexual fetish is the idea of the fetish as a form of sexual dysfunction - essentially any thing or ritual outside of the sex act itself which is required for the fetishist to be able to perform (as opposed to various forms of "kink" where such a ritual or object is desireable but not nessesary).


I was talking with a friend of mine the other day and she suggested the same thing. I guess it's the fine line between need & desire.

For many, they can't get off unless there is a D/s dynamic present. I guess that is a fetish then? On top of being a kink, that is...

I know I can. I can get off of high energy, creative and (for lack of a better word) vanilla sex. So D/s can be a kink, but not necessarily a fetish for me.

Aie!! That is some complicated stuff :)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Suleiman
Okay, I'm rambling. I really should go to bed (but I dont wanna)



I'm glad to see I wasn't the only night owl last night. I made the mistake of lying down at 7pm with only the intention of resting my eyes and woke up at 2am. I did get a few winks in between 5 & 6:30 but Urgh!!

- LA

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RE: Bondage, D/s, Sadomasochism & Fetishes - 9/27/2004 6:40:06 AM   
LadyBeckett


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I don't think ALWAYS having to do it MY way is dysfunctional, or a "fetish". It is simply the "correct" way.

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

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"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

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