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Freedom ? - 7/10/2010 6:35:55 PM

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From: Tamaris
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In this day and age what constitutes freedom ?

Are we free, truly free or is it an illusion ?

The reason I ask, is more and more I am seeing what ever existed for a poor, (that means a person without wealth) people has been sewn up by the society we are in to prevent anyone getting on the ladder of success by their own means, it seems if anyone wants to better themselves, they have to do it within the confines of the order laid down by whoever created the order of society we live in.

Take the most basic thing for example, that of a roof over one's head, somewhere to live. England where I was born and live, pitching a tent is out because of laws created to stop vagrants, living in a van in a layby is out because of the same laws, the common land is gone, nothing exists unless one has money in their pocket to pay for a roof, even the travellers now have to buy their own land and with that there is much opposition from the nimbys. England at least is totally sewn up, so we have to submit to paying for the right to live by other person's rules, which to me is not freedom as I believe it was intended, we are not the free people we think we are.

Is there anywhere in the world that one can call free ?

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

RE: Freedom ? - 7/10/2010 6:47:27 PM

AQuietSimpleMan

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People are free.....

If they WANT anything it is NOT free...In order to Get Wealth we engage in contracts and agreements that one would say was made by choice so where we are not free we have done so by choice.

I can live my entire life and not be required to answer to anyone as long as I choose to do so somewhere that nothing is regulated.

You may be free but if you want to hunt you you have to enter into an agreement by getting a huntiung license.
You may be free but if you want to have a place to live you either have to find land that isn't already owned or engage in a contract that takes about the freedom to just be.

You are Free.... we are not owned... but if you want anything that makes life nicer and not a constant struggle.. you will need to give up some of that freedom. Go to work, agree to give money to the Governemnt by doing so, if you don't agree you don't get to work.......

What you need to understand is that we are slaves to ouor own idea of what makes "Life" someting worth living.

I just accept that fact that I am as free as I am willing to be.

QSM

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(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Freedom ? - 7/10/2010 6:49:53 PM

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There is only the same amount of land as there was 60 years ago (near enough), but twice as many people (near enough).

Seems to me you're being fairly unrealistic in your implications.

Other than the antarctic, there is an area which is either in Sudan or Egypt depending who you ask.

The Sudanese insist it's Egyptian, the Egyptians go out of their way to overemphasise their opinion of it being a part of Sudan. Bir Tawil (IIRC), translating as 'water well'. It is the only area of habitable land on earth not claimed by any government. There are a few nomadic cattle herders who use the land (& well), and the Egyptians use it for military exercises.....but it's 'free' even by your requirements.

(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Freedom ? - 7/10/2010 7:06:47 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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Freedom is a relative condition. It's like asking if there's anywhere in the world that's truly hot, or truly cold. Hot or cold compared to what? Some places are hotter than others, some places colder than others, but no place that's totally hot or totally cold. Same with freedom - some places have a greater measure of freedom, some places less than others. No place is totally free or totally without freedom.

In addition, the concept of freedom is subjective. Many Americans feel that being asked to pay taxes for social services is a loss of their freedom of self-determination, but the social services those taxes subsidize ensure other citizens the freedom to not die of starvation. And so on.

But having said all that, I agree - by my definition as well, England is far less free than the Colonies. Even though I'm no fan of living in America, I know I could never be happy living in England.

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(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Freedom ? - 7/10/2010 7:19:45 PM

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From: Tamaris
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In this country for one to improve their situation they at least have to have a fixed abode first, for that person to better themselves through working for another, a wage must be available that pays for accomodation and food, but as an employer does not seek to better the status of those they employ, all that is left is to seek fulfillment by being self employed, which if that does not work, then a slave to others one must be. I sometimes suspect as Britain was largely responsible under Hawkins to create the slave trade in the west, we have not grown out of it, as we still desire others to work for nothing or next to nothing, as close as there is to slavery in modern times.

I live in rented accomodation, happy I was for five years in that situation, but now something has reared it's head a situation where tenants have less rights than the owner occupiers leading me to feel like a second class citizen, I have it seems upset the local bureacracy, for my audacity to believe I am free in my existence only to be told I have no say because I am a mere tenant not a land owner.

The resultant is, I feel threatened in my living, a situation I have not known for five years, a situation that brings out the worst in me, as it is I must fight for my rights if it is I have any for not being a land owner. I suspect my status will go against me, even though what I have been told I am sure is not fair if not unlawful, but I fight against people with wealth and land, those recognised in society.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to DCWoody)

RE: Freedom ? - 7/10/2010 7:21:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

, but as an employer does not seek to better the status of those they employ,

wow, is this ever wrong.

(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Freedom ? - 7/10/2010 7:25:46 PM

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Is there anywhere in the world that one can call free ?

I know this is going to sound trite, but the only place you are ever "free" is in your head, which is why it is important to own that space....

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(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Freedom ? - 7/10/2010 7:30:45 PM

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From: Tamaris
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I was free in my head that was until bureacracy brought me down to reality.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Freedom ? - 7/11/2010 1:15:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

In this country for one to improve their situation they at least have to have a fixed abode first, for that person to better themselves through working for another, a wage must be available that pays for accomodation and food, but as an employer does not seek to better the status of those they employ, all that is left is to seek fulfillment by being self employed, which if that does not work, then a slave to others one must be. I sometimes suspect as Britain was largely responsible under Hawkins to create the slave trade in the west, we have not grown out of it, as we still desire others to work for nothing or next to nothing, as close as there is to slavery in modern times.

I live in rented accomodation, happy I was for five years in that situation, but now something has reared it's head a situation where tenants have less rights than the owner occupiers leading me to feel like a second class citizen, I have it seems upset the local bureacracy, for my audacity to believe I am free in my existence only to be told I have no say because I am a mere tenant not a land owner.

The resultant is, I feel threatened in my living, a situation I have not known for five years, a situation that brings out the worst in me, as it is I must fight for my rights if it is I have any for not being a land owner. I suspect my status will go against me, even though what I have been told I am sure is not fair if not unlawful, but I fight against people with wealth and land, those recognised in society.

Aneirin....you're coming across...increasingly...as someone who is world-weary....and looking to apportion blame. You should get your head together mate. You're not a second class citizen......you sign a contract as a tenant......don't like it then don't sign it.....in the same way other people enter into contracts.

Fight against people with wealth and land? You're beginning to sound like Pahunk....next the pair of you will be pitching up at Buckingham Palace with a bazooka...ranting: "give us freedom or else the old dear gets it".

Why don't you join a society or something....preferably with people who are upbeat and philosophical about life. And I'm surprised at you....because being in a county such as Devon...I would have thought the simple things in life would be prized.

And to the answer the question.....you're as free as the information which you have at your disposal.....and as we operate on limited knowledge of the world's springs and mechanisms then we're not altogether free. But never mind.....find a woman and get the only piece of 'freedom' you can count on.

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Freedom ? - 7/11/2010 3:36:18 AM

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Jumped.

Freedom is an illusion because noone knows how to use it .......

That is a near quote from a fake, false, forged document of questionable origin.

But this is me :

True freedom is inversely proportional to population density.

T

(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Freedom ? - 7/11/2010 4:45:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

True freedom is inversely proportional to population density.

T

Sounds like Heidegger.....and there's something in that......inevitably people are influenced by those around them.....more around them hinders individualism.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

RE: Freedom ? - 7/11/2010 4:58:17 AM

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From: S.E. London U.K.
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Well the opposing view to that: how free are you if you are totally alone and subject to dying from something as simple as a broken leg?

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RE: Freedom ? - 7/11/2010 5:21:44 AM

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From: The Netherlands
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quote:

True freedom is inversely proportional to population density.

Not always, in my experience. In these parts, little towns in the province tend to have a high degree of social control; people know each other, and they keep an eye on each other too. I do not experience that as a freedom, but rather as the opposite.

However, in the metropolitan area, with a higher population density, people seem to care less about your social life, political colour and preferences... and that makes me feel more "free".

Completely subjective, I will agree.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

RE: Freedom ? - 7/11/2010 5:53:35 AM

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From: Stourport-England
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The problem A is that minus all the laws and regulations to which we are subject, and which you appear to find constricting to your freedom, is that we should find ourselves far less free, being subject instead to the tyrannical domination of those with the means to exert their will as they see fit upon us, quite arbitrarily. "Might maketh right" represents a far less free state than one in which "right maketh might".

Now it might be arguable that the law is made and enforced by and for the benefit of those who have the might. It might also be arguable that the notion of equality of arms at law is a naive concept when one party, on account of wealth, may employ specialist counsel whilst the other cannot or must represent himself. It might well be arguable too that in a smaller English community, where friendships, acquaintances, allegiances and connections founded on class might influence the outcome of proceedings adversely to those not of the "right" class, justice may occasionally because of these factors not be done.

Overall though, the above notwithstanding and escalation to higher courts not then being possible for some reason or other, the law is there is protect rights and to provide for remedy for wrongs. In your situation it stands to reason that the owner of your accomodation must have rights against you in respect of his property and that he will have agreed a tenancy agreement with you to state and protect those rights. Absent the law we have after all he could have no property for anyone might simply take it from him. Equally though it cannot be that the owner can have absolute power to dispose of that agreement as he will in a way that should deprive you of the rights you have acquired to the use and occupation of the property. Absent the law he could simply kick you out any time he wished, put additional tenants in with you, raise the rent month by month, whatever, provided he had the might to do so.

It sounds to me as if you, in common with most of the population, have an aversion to the law and whatever it is that has happened has you in a spin, believing all kinds of horrors and inspiring all kinds of fears. Take a step back, look at it all dispassionately for what it is and deal with it. If you find you cant then get thee to the Citizens Advice or seek other help. I wouldnt advise a solicitor right now unless something is found thats worth paying a solicitor for, something serious (even so there is another, cheaper option).

If its simply that the agreement is ended and the owner wants you out, and has served notice on you, then thats that. If youve breached the agreement then thats that. But you do have some rights so you need to look at exactly what it is thats happening and proceed from that basis.

E

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(in reply to taleon)

RE: Freedom ? - 7/11/2010 6:42:47 AM

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From: Tamaris
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It is not my landlord that is the problem, but I have inadvertantly dropped her in the shit by her being my landlord and so she has been called to answer for my actions, something I know she does not want as the verbal agreement between the two of us stands in addition to the legal tennancy agreement.

The problem arose out of my having a motorcycle, it apparently was parked in the wrong place in a private car park, even though the parking space was allotted to my tenancy. The first I knew of my unknown error was a nasty letter affixed to my vehicle stating that my machine was parked illegally and if I do not remove it forthwith, it will be removed and disposed of and the bill sent to me.

Now to understand my vehicle is not a heap nor an eyesore for it is just over two years old and has just been fully restored by me, the problem I am beginning to understand is a private company which is engaged to look after the grounds and they have decided to make themselves known and there exercise the rules created by the lease holder which I and no one else I have asked knows about as nothing has been posted, no signs or other demarcation to state what the car park is to be used for.

What I have been told by this company is the area where my shed and boat is is the alloted motorcycle parking yet no signage was ever provided and even it I to place my shed and boat had to spend a day cutting back brambles and nettles that this company had allowed to accumulate and in conversation with the oldies here, that area has always been so, a forgotten patch of the carpark bordering onto nature which was steadily creeping in. The result is I have been told to remove my shed and boat as those are also are not in the right place and of all things I have had the audacity to do what I do without first asking their permission and to add to that vehicle repair or restoration is not permitted on the property, I am technically in breach of my tenancy agreement by not speaking to a company I never knew existed first.

I have asked where I may relocate my shed and boat and have been told as tenant I have no right to even place them as there are different rules for owner occupiers and tenants where I live. So I have been here five years now and it seems if I may stay the rest to my dying days, as a tenant I do not have the freedoms the owner occupiers have, so a notion of second class citizen comes readily to mind for not being in a position to even purchase the most basic and smallest of properties for me to live in and this place is small and very basic not even with the accepted standard of central heating and DG windows, but I live happily without those thingsk, for I can manage in other ways.

This company that is causing the problem is made up of local residents who have erstwhile been anonymous. I think this quite possibly all started because of my notion for security when it was I detected a person loitering outside a neighbours window peering in. Showing care for my neighbours I enquired of this person who he was and what was he doing peering into the property. The person refused to identify himself and give an explanation for his actions and was even offensive to me, so as I was heading down the car park, I thought to inform him I will call the police if he refuses to answer the questions I have put to him as to me he came across as a very suspicious person in his actions and response to me. To note my neighbours are mostly retired a mean age of seventy, so I help and look out for them where and when I can and to ignore a suspicious person loitering outside a neighbours property is not neighbourly at all.

It turns out the very next day I received the nasty notices unsigned but written by order of the above company, when I enquired who put them there, I was told the director of said company, who justy happened to be the person who I met the previous day and he was said to be a twat of the highest order a local busy body, a special cuntstable and one seeking power in the community. He had basically implemented rules written long ago and so made a complaint that now has to be followed through in an area where the status quo was always help thy neighbour and an easy going live and let live stance to follow.

I have come up against petty officialdom wielded by a person with power that is not fit to hold it, but he has a job that no one else can be bothered with, so happily takes the position upon himself and exercises his powers where he sees fit and in this case to me it comes across as a personal issue because I challenged him to who he was when I perceived a person up to no good.

Knowing me, I will not back down, I can't, I mustn't as I know what that invites, but I must fight on an implementation of rules I believe are either out of date or illegal and all that for a petty autocrat.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: Freedom ? - 7/11/2010 7:24:35 AM

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From: Stourport-England
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So you have a written, signed tenancy agreement? With whom? For what period?
Is your landlady an owner (freehold or leasehold?) who is letting to you, or is she a tenant who is sub-letting to you?
What does this tenancy agreement have to say on the subject of access to and use of the parking, or "communal" area? There may be questions of "custom and use" (though usually this requires much longer to establish)?
Who is the freeholder for the building? and who for the parking area if different?
The freeholder can be all the owners since the change to things that allowed leaseholders to buy the freehold.

Write me off board if you prefer

What you need to establish is the relationships between you and others and so what rights/protections exist or may be established between you - on the basis of the tenancy agreement you have plus whatever else can be put together to throw back at whoever it is thats causing the problem.

E

< Message edited by LadyEllen -- 7/11/2010 7:31:33 AM >

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Freedom ? - 7/11/2010 8:40:57 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

, but as an employer does not seek to better the status of those they employ,

wow, is this ever wrong.

Absolutely agreed.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

RE: Freedom ? - 7/11/2010 9:25:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Well the opposing view to that: how free are you if you are totally alone and subject to dying from something as simple as a broken leg?

You don't have to be completely alone to manage that one, unfortunately.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)

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