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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 2:09:04 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

He is ,I think, referring to Beck......not Jesus,who as far a I know was never purported to be an alcoholic,nor  a drug abuser.
i should be too embarrassed to admit you nailed it.


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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 2:11:01 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Oops,DYB answered before I posted....but once again my reading of this situation was spot on.What a burden it is having to explain all of this shit to all of you folks .
it is a cross you must bear, Mike (no pun intended)


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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 2:13:34 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

He is ,I think, referring to Beck......not Jesus,who as far a I know was never purported to be an alcoholic,nor  a drug abuser.


Oh I don't know, there was that whole turning water into wine thing. I bet he got invited to all the good parties.

bet He thought they were all a buncha cheap bastards.


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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 2:23:35 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Blessed are the cheap bastards...

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 2:38:50 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		When you consider that the New Testament was written fifty to 200 years after the death of Christ, and Christians were trying to gain acceptance within the Roman Empire, there are a few things that need to be considered.

1)  The New Testament clearly has a pro Roman bias, the Romans were, according to the New Testament, blameless of any connection to the Death and Crucifixion of  Christ.

2)  The Jews of Jerusalem would have actually had no say in whether or not Christ was crucified, the were a conquered and controlled people.

3) Jesus was being proclaimed the King of the Jews, and was gathering a tremendous following, even among the  sicarii and other Jewish rebels, thus would have been considered a threat to the control of the province by the Romans.

4) If the Jews had condemned Jesus to death, he would have been stoned to death, not crucified.

Conclusion:
The Roman governor, Pontius Pilate would have had Jesus arrested for treason and sedition and that was the reason he was crucified.  The Jews did not have the authority to have anyone crucified, AND most importantly, Crucifixion was a punishment reserved for STATE criminals, such as rebels and traitors.

By writing the new testament and putting the blame on the Jews, the early Christians were trying to gain a foothold within Roman society, and that would have been impossible if the Gospels would have been written with the Romans as the guilty party.


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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 3:28:29 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Blessed are the cheap bastards...
.....for they shall inherit the earth?
edited due to typo....I actually know how to spell "for"

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 7/16/2010 3:29:30 PM >

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 4:24:40 PM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		I may have to concede your point, Arpig, after reading the grusome history of the persecutions of "heretics" that took place on both sides during the Reformations of the 16th Century. It was god-awful. However, irrespective of your Canaanite example which was pretty horrible, the Jews of Europe were in a terrible pickle from all sides. Ironically, they found refuge in Islamic lands mostly.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 4:43:38 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Conclusion:
The Roman governor, Pontius Pilate would have had Jesus arrested for treason and sedition and that was the reason he was crucified. The Jews did not have the authority to have anyone crucified, AND most importantly, Crucifixion was a punishment reserved for STATE criminals, such as rebels and traitors.

By writing the new testament and putting the blame on the Jews, the early Christians were trying to gain a foothold within Roman society, and that would have been impossible if the Gospels would have been written with the Romans as the guilty party.


You make some very good points, jlf. It is always interesting to try to understand the mileu in which historical events occurred. Much of what you say probably has merit, especially considering that the Temple in Jersualem was destroyed maybe around the time Mark was written and before the other three Gospels. That event must have had an impact. Hundreds of thousands were killed by the Romans in Judea.

However, during the succeeding centuries after Constantine made Christianity the State Religion there was an on-going dialogue regarding how to dispose of the Judaic Jews. It was conversion vs destruction. The Christian Church believed its own mythology of the guilt of the Jews.

As an example of the long-reaching consequences of that early, eventually successful attempt to gain acceptance from the Romans there is this tidbit of recent history:

Pope Pius XII remained Pope until his death in 1958, thirteen years after the liberation of the last Nazi concentration camp. When Pope Pius XII died, Cardinal Angelo Roncalli was elected as the next Pope and took the name of Pope John XXIII. Cardinal Roncalli had been outspoken against the Nazi regime and had unsuccessfully attempted to pressure Pope Pius XII into issuing an anti-Nazi proclamation.

On his first Good Friday as Pope, John XXIII changed the Holy Week prayer for “the conversion of the Jews” by dropping the words “perfidious (treacherous) Jews” from the prayer. The words of the prayer were changed to “those to whom God spoke first” and “the first hearers of the word of God”. The prayer was later renamed “For the Jews” and the words “conversion of” were dropped.

Basically, i agree with your conclusion but wish to point out the lasting consequences.







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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 4:47:18 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

Mormons have their own books, The Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, and believe that those books are primary over the Bible in the event of conflicts.
i don't want to start a debate about Mormonism vs Christianity vs Judaism...but i thought the Mormons followed the Old Testament as do Jews, but then add the teachings of Joseph Smith?


Nope.  The Mormons follow the Bible, both Old and New Testament, but they added their own books, which rule in the event of conflicts.  It's similar to the Muslims, who accept both Old and New Testaments, but add the Quran.


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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 4:56:47 PM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You make some very good points, jlf. It is always interesting to try to understand the mileu in which historical events occurred.


On top of jlf's excellent post, it's worth noting that the Gospels' portyal of Pontius Pilate as a compassionate man wracked by his conscience really doesn't fit with any other historical accounts.



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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 5:02:41 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

Mormons have their own books, The Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, and believe that those books are primary over the Bible in the event of conflicts.
i don't want to start a debate about Mormonism vs Christianity vs Judaism...but i thought the Mormons followed the Old Testament as do Jews, but then add the teachings of Joseph Smith?


Nope.  The Mormons follow the Bible, both Old and New Testament, but they added their own books, which rule in the event of conflicts.  It's similar to the Muslims, who accept both Old and New Testaments, but add the Quran.



Tell a fundie-con that Muslims worship Jesus and Mother Mary as saints and their head will explode.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 5:20:19 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

Mormons have their own books, The Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, and believe that those books are primary over the Bible in the event of conflicts.
i don't want to start a debate about Mormonism vs Christianity vs Judaism...but i thought the Mormons followed the Old Testament as do Jews, but then add the teachings of Joseph Smith?


Nope.  The Mormons follow the Bible, both Old and New Testament, but they added their own books, which rule in the event of conflicts.  It's similar to the Muslims, who accept both Old and New Testaments, but add the Quran.



Tell a fundie-con that Muslims worship Jesus and Mother Mary as saints and their head will explode.


Not exactly.  They consider Jesus to have been a prophet, not the Messiah.  They consider Mohammed to be the Messiah.  In other words, they demoted Jesus and appointed another. 


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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 5:57:28 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
Muslims, who accept both Old and New Testaments, but add the Quran.

Muslims do not accept the New Testament. Show me one who has read and accepted the New Testament. Show me one with an intact penis. Per my definition Muslims are Abrahamic Jews. They most definitely do not worship Allah the pagan god of Mohamed.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 6:54:20 PM   
thornhappy


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Status: offline 		Jaysus, Rule.  Your definition must be unique in this world.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 7:03:48 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You make some very good points, jlf. It is always interesting to try to understand the mileu in which historical events occurred.


On top of jlf's excellent post, it's worth noting that the Gospels' portyal of Pontius Pilate as a compassionate man wracked by his conscience really doesn't fit with any other historical accounts.



Agreed. There was nothing compassionate about the Roman occupation of Palestine especially in light of the continuing and fierce resistence by the Zealots and other insurgent groups. The Romans killed hundreds of thousands in the initial invasion and hundreds of thousands more when they crushed the rebellion and destroyed the Temple. (Josephus probably a good source) Additionally, this business of three crosses for crucifixion was probably a fiction. I have read that the Romans used thousands at a time to intimidate the population of Judea. It is also reported that the victims were left in a mass grave. Compassion? Not likely.

However, the myth of deicide lives on despite efforts by John XXIII, Paul VI and John Paul II.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 7:10:20 PM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		My definition is simple: if one has a father with a mutilated penis or if one has a mutilated penis themselves, such a person is an Abrahamic Jew - as distinguished from genuine Jews - unless one is a Christian, but even then one must repent and ensure that no males in subsequent generations are mutilated.

Not that Abraham was the first person to practice circumcision in his area as there are indications that it was prevalent there before him.

Abrahamic Jews worship Abraham, a human, not the Divine nor the pagan god who instructed Abraham to circumcise Isaac.

< Message edited by Rule -- 7/16/2010 7:12:08 PM >

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 7:14:09 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

Mormons have their own books, The Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, and believe that those books are primary over the Bible in the event of conflicts.
i don't want to start a debate about Mormonism vs Christianity vs Judaism...but i thought the Mormons followed the Old Testament as do Jews, but then add the teachings of Joseph Smith?


Nope.  The Mormons follow the Bible, both Old and New Testament, but they added their own books, which rule in the event of conflicts.  It's similar to the Muslims, who accept both Old and New Testaments, but add the Quran.



Tell a fundie-con that Muslims worship Jesus and Mother Mary as saints and their head will explode.


Not exactly.  They consider Jesus to have been a prophet, not the Messiah.  They consider Mohammed to be the Messiah.  In other words, they demoted Jesus and appointed another. 


That`s what I meant.I certainly didn`t mean Messiah.Of course, they believe Mohammed is.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 7:25:47 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

Mormons have their own books, The Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, and believe that those books are primary over the Bible in the event of conflicts.
i don't want to start a debate about Mormonism vs Christianity vs Judaism...but i thought the Mormons followed the Old Testament as do Jews, but then add the teachings of Joseph Smith?


Nope.  The Mormons follow the Bible, both Old and New Testament, but they added their own books, which rule in the event of conflicts.  It's similar to the Muslims, who accept both Old and New Testaments, but add the Quran.



Tell a fundie-con that Muslims worship Jesus and Mother Mary as saints and their head will explode.


Not exactly.  They consider Jesus to have been a prophet, not the Messiah.  They consider Mohammed to be the Messiah.  In other words, they demoted Jesus and appointed another. 


That`s what I meant.I certainly didn`t mean Messiah.Of course, they believe Mohammed is.


Not sure about that....

The Qur'an states Jesus is the Messiah,[Qur'an 3:45] and Muslims believe Jesus is alive in Heaven and will return to Earth to defeat the Dajjal, or Antichrist.[20] Wasn't Mohammed a Prophet?

< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/16/2010 7:27:24 PM >

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 8:21:55 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
What I don't understand is why people get so worked up about it. Anyone who believes he died for our sins should understand that in order for him to die, someone else had to kill him. What difference does it make if it was the Romans or the Jews. It was all part of the plan and "Jesus was acquitted for my sins" just doesn't have the same ring to it.  If they don't believe in the bible then who the fuck cares who killed some random carpenter 2000 years ago. Personally I think people use it, to justify their hatred toward others.

Belief in the bible often isn't a binary position.

Not to disagree with your statement about people using the bible to justify their hate, people completely use the bible to justify the positions they already hold and ignore the parts they disagree with.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/16/2010 8:25:54 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

My definition is simple: if one has a father with a mutilated penis or if one has a mutilated penis themselves, such a person is an Abrahamic Jew - as distinguished from genuine Jews - unless one is a Christian, but even then one must repent and ensure that no males in subsequent generations are mutilated.

Not that Abraham was the first person to practice circumcision in his area as there are indications that it was prevalent there before him.

Abrahamic Jews worship Abraham, a human, not the Divine nor the pagan god who instructed Abraham to circumcise Isaac.


Dude, I realize that you have your own definitions of things, but doesn't it trouble you at times that everyone else has a consistent definition that conflicts with yours?

And in dozens of years of attending synagogues in Utah, Maine, and Colorado, I have yet to see one that worships Abraham.  We worship G-d, the one you call Divine.  And Abraham responded to G-d, not some pagan deity.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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Profile   Post #: 60
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