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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 3:23:07 AM

Mrxp

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I do not have anything to say to the core of the discussion, as it does not pertain to me, I would only like to add a rather technical note: you may choose to draw analogies from wolves or horses or the atlantic herring if you wish, but the truth of the matter is, the animal which is best suited for this purpose is the ape, and primates in general. Chimpanzee Politics by Frans de Waal is a very good, and relatively short read, which will give you insight into human behavior that a ton of psychology reads would not.

Having said that, I must add that I agree with realwhiteknight that "although we have basic 'animal' instincts, we have other needs too" and that "often they conflict with our basic instincts", and I fully acknowledge that we often are capable of using our rationality to put other concerns ahead of our animal instincts, but I must emphatically add not always. I disagree that "the words 'alpha' and 'beta' are oversimplifications and meaningless when applied to humans". They apply a lot, and if you want to know why and how, you need to read a few things about evolution of the species, and then a few things about primates.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 81

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 7:33:26 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

They apply a lot, and if you want to know why and how, you need to read a few things about evolution of the species, and then a few things about primates.

Chimp society is very interesting...

To how they will bully sons out of their immediate group once they hit puberty, to how the females have been witnessed to gang up on a male chimp that committed "rape"

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mrxp)

Post #: 82

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 9:30:43 AM

PeonForHer

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Joined: 9/27/2008
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FR

I think one of the (many) major problems of the 'alpha/beta' idea is that it's too easily used as a synonym for 'leader/follower'. One mistake of that, to me, is that it lets in an extremely conservative attitude through the back door. (No great surprise there. That's nearly always been the result when people have tried to 'learn lessons for humans from nature' over the last few hundred years.)

Humans innovate, non-humans do not. (Or at least they don't to anything like the same degree.) A human leader is always going to have a set of qualities that aren't adequately covered by the idea of 'alpha'. Thus, for instance, (and re Frans de Waalhuman's Chimpanzee Politics) human political systems have changed massively in most parts of the world in just a couple of hundred years - whereas the 'political systems of chimpanzees' probably haven't changed more than slightly in millions of years.

That last points to a very big difference between humans and even our closest non-human relatives. It's one reason why we have the human sciences and humanities for the study of humans on the one hand, and the natural sciences to study non-humans, on the other. The two sides meet here and there, but we should be very cautious about importing the knowledge gained by the one into the other.

Most of all we have to be cautious about 'fashionable epistemologies' - that is, ways of knowing that become 'hip' at one stage or another and whose findings somehow come to be seen as self-evidently 'more valuable' than those of other branches of study. The idea of 'nature's knowledge is best' came to the fore during the Third Reich. It had disastrous results. It'd be good not to repeat even the smallest of mistakes that were made during that period.

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(in reply to Mrxp)

Post #: 83

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 9:34:03 AM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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As an anthropologist, I would tell you, on the very first day of my undergrad class we were asked to sit down and describe the differences between animal kind and human.... and when it comes down to it, we have differing adaptations but anything you say about humankind, you could say about animal-kind.... we are just naked apes after all.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 84

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 10:34:56 AM

PeonForHer

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Then . . . why bother to study anthropology instead of zoology? I hope your tutor had a good answer.

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Post #: 85

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 10:47:56 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

im not sure that any of us are all that different to how you describe youreself to be honest.

Just a quick comment on this... there are a -lot- of individuals who are different from both yours and julia's descriptions of themselves. They're deeply submissive individuals, who will yield to anyone, even another submissive individual who, in a pique of anger, takes the rung above them. There is -nothing- wrong with this. Just like there is nothing wrong with being the person who only yields the top rung, and then only when the person who claims it can prove that xhe can climb there higher, faster, and with style.

For the OP, I think that the most important thing isn't how you define yourself in a global perspective, but how you define yourself in the individual relationships of which you are a part. You may be submissive in one relationship, and dominant in another, and still be "julia", and again, there is nothing wrong with it -- it is just what it is.

We are not animals who live by instinct. We have a fore-brain for a purpose. It allows us to reason. It also sometimes gets us caught in the trap of spending so much time trying to categorize our behaviors and make sure that they fit into some kind of pattern that we can justify that we slow our own growth. It really doesn't matter what you call yourself, as long as you are honest with yourself and with those with whom you relate about the specifics of your particular dynamic. If a label fits and you like it, use it -- but be sure that when someone -else- uses a label for you, that you understand how they interpret that label, and if it doesn't fit, don't claim it.

Hope this made sense.

Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 7/23/2010 10:50:13 AM >

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Post #: 86

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 10:51:08 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Hope this made sense.
Calla

It did, and very well said on all points.

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Post #: 87

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 10:58:22 AM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

f a label fits and you like it, use it -- but be sure that when someone -else- uses a label for you, that you understand how they interpret that label, and if it doesn't fit, don't claim it.

Or you can always find the person that understands the labels you use for yourself....

The men I interact with are the ones that usually have assigned me a "submissive" label.... when my vanilla friends have found out about my orientation they are usually surprised... they would usually peg me on the other side of the kneel.

I would say there is nothing wrong with how anyone is, and I hope that I did not communicate that I think it is wrong to be submissive to everyone, there is nothing wrong with that. I think often people stereotype submissive sorts and think that if we are not 100 percent submissive to everyone all the time, it negates our submissiveness when we choose to give it to one person. I don't think that is true either.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 88

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 11:17:41 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

I think often people stereotype submissive sorts and think that if we are not 100 percent submissive to everyone all the time, it negates our submissiveness when we choose to give it to one person. I don't think that is true either.

I agree completely, and this is why, when I'm working with someone, the -only- thing that is important is that person's decisions about how xhe fits in the context of hir own relationships -- and whether or not it is -working- for hir in that context. Whether someone else outside thinks it -should- work is irrelevant to me (and to my client). In the same way, as long as everyone involved is on the same page with the terms being used, it doesn't matter -what- someone outside calls what it is that their relationship shapes up as.

Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 89

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 11:24:38 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Then . . . why bother to study anthropology instead of zoology? I hope your tutor had a good answer.

Some anthropologists study primates and human evolution.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 90

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 11:33:33 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

Some anthropologists study primates and human evolution.

Yup, they're called "biological anthropologists" (as opposed to cultural anthropologists, who typically focus on human culture)... and some folks who get their degrees in anthropology (either biological or cultural) continue their studies and become primatologists, focusing on the anthropological and social development of primate species.

Zoologists, in general, focus their studies on non-primate life -- primates seem to be in a separate, distinct class from a research perspective, with many social traits that indicate cultural development, but without a lasting culture.

Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 91

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 11:45:28 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

Some anthropologists study primates and human evolution.

Yup, they're called "biological anthropologists" (as opposed to cultural anthropologists, who typically focus on human culture)... and some folks who get their degrees in anthropology (either biological or cultural) continue their studies and become primatologists, focusing on the anthropological and social development of primate species.

Zoologists, in general, focus their studies on non-primate life -- primates seem to be in a separate, distinct class from a research perspective, with many social traits that indicate cultural development, but without a lasting culture.

Calla

I am an applied anthropologist, which can be from any of the sub disciplines, although I trend toward cultural.... socio-biological anthropologists often study primates with a view towards understanding human evolution...

I had to learn all of the different hominid types, and in addition we had to memorize the major extinctions of all life while I was an undergrad... but i have forgotten the vast majority of that stuff, although I do know where to find the information about it

The major point of having us describe the differences between humans and non human species is that we share a lot with all life on some levels, and the higher up the food chain you go, the more we have the tendency to share... whether it is just that we are mammalian, or that we are bi-pedal, or that we use tools (and yes, chimps have not only shown the propensity to use tools, such as fishing sticks for termites, but actually adapt items for different uses in captivity, meaning they adapt).

We really do not understand how much dolphins communicate with each other, either, for example, so we are not alone on the linguistic front, either. Now we could say that humans have shown themselves to be tremendously more skilled, but that would be a difference in ability due to increased brain size and how that gray matter is arranged.

I think we also tend to forget that there have been other species of humans before us, they are just extinct now, but they existed nonetheless, and they had some pretty cool adaptations of their own

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 92

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 11:46:56 AM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I would say there is nothing wrong with how anyone is, and I hope that I did not communicate that I think it is wrong to be submissive to everyone, there is nothing wrong with that. I think often people stereotype submissive sorts and think that if we are not 100 percent submissive to everyone all the time, it negates our submissiveness when we choose to give it to one person. I don't think that is true either.

And we stronger personality types are just as judgmental. We castrate those that display a natural submissiveness and label them doormats instead. I often find it interesting (read: ironic) that she cannot see the fallacy in that line of thinking and hasn't figured out how she might benefit from the traits she's deriding much like her counterpart can learn from her as well.

I don't encounter the stereotype you're speaking of very often. The biggest argument is often relegated to women that label themselves submissive that have a very hard time yielding to the authority they've sworn allegiance to. It's the "I'm a slave but..." stanza that typically gets people up in arms.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 93

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 11:56:23 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

I don't encounter the stereotype you're speaking of very often. The biggest argument is often relegated to women that label themselves submissive that have a very hard time yielding to the authority they've sworn allegiance to. It's the "I'm a slave but..." stanza that typically gets people up in arms.

I am speaking of someone seeking, which I have been even attacked for not being submissive enough, not being real enough, not being a slave... etc etc etc. I have been told to leave this site. I have been told to go to a match.com, etc etc etc.

My perspective is not about how we interact on these boards with each other, it is about how I have been treated by dominants that have felt free to comment on my profile as if they are the ultimate judge of submissiveness.

I do not care, personally, how people live their lives or how they label themselves. I am from the school that labels work best when self applied. That is the reason for my sigline, once you label me you negate me. I thought it was appropriate because of all of the cross judgments and labels.

When I first came to this site every other week there was a thread about Sub V Slave, as though we were in competition with each other. There was anger over this, often, because the paradigm was that slaves submit more deeply and truly and are just better than submissives. I can remember a thread a sub started called "She's 'justa' submissive" as she perceived that was a common attitude here....

Since that time these boards are less judgmental, those posting on them, especially us "s-types" do not allow ourselves to be pulled into a comparison like we used to, and some of the people that wanted to put us into boxes decided to leave, because we resisted these categories..

If people are happy doing what they are doing, that is all that matters to me

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 94

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 12:17:20 PM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I do not care, personally, how people live their lives or how they label themselves. I am from the school that labels work best when self applied. That is the reason for my sigline, once you label me you negate me. I thought it was appropriate because of all of the cross judgments and labels.

I believe we each have preconceived notions regarding BDSM and what works best for us. I've encountered men that expressed interest in me that could never be my owner. While he may consider himself dominant, he lacks the proper tools to dominate me. I don't discount his role, but simply recognize it doesn't fit my person instead. In terms of submissives and slaves, I pay less attention to their definition and more on how it's displayed. For those that are unowned or not attached, I consider if she's made herself an attractive prospect for a would be Keeper, or is contributing to her condition unknowingly. As for those that are currently yoked, I take note if she's a positive reflection of her tether, or something else altogether, albeit one he allows nonetheless. However, just because I've formulated an opinion doesn't mean it should be verbalized. Some things are better left unsaid.

quote:

When I first came to this site every other week there was a thread about Sub V Slave, as though we were in competition with each other. There was anger over this, often, because the paradigm was that slaves submit more deeply and truly and are just better than submissives. I can remember a thread a sub started called "She's 'justa' submissive" as she perceived that was a common attitude here....

CollarMe is much nicer about the subject. Other venues are more brutal in my opinion. I think some aspire towards slavery due to the perceptions you've articulated. It is often a accident waiting to happen. I have never felt one path was superior to the other, but reflected the individual's need to surrender and serve in a different capacity.

quote:

Since that time these boards are less judgmental, those posting on them, especially us "s-types" do not allow ourselves to be pulled into a comparison like we used to, and some of the people that wanted to put us into boxes decided to leave, because we resisted these categories..

Whereas I find that whole idea very strange in its entirety. Why would you allow a stranger to pollute the soil he never claimed? The space between your ears is sacred and held for one, not the masses. It should never be a point of contention in my opinion.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 95

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 12:22:26 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Whereas I find that whole idea very strange in its entirety. Why would you allow a stranger to pollute the soil he never claimed? The space between your ears is sacred and held for one, not the masses. It should never be a point of contention in my opinion.

I, for one, never allowed anyone to pollute anything... but I did post on threads in which someone would put forward some view that being a bottom was physical, being a submissive was mental, and being a slave was spiritual... now tell me, what relationship do you want? Which has the superior ring to it? And when rating such relationships, where does vanilla fit in?

Now answering such drivel does not mean I allowed someone to pollute me, it just means i posted on a message board. What i have found, though, is that both slaves and submissives on this site tend to get kinda fiery over the comparisons these days when they used to feed into it. I think this is a positive thing

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 96

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 12:49:08 PM

porcelaine

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Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I, for one, never allowed anyone to pollute anything... but I did post on threads in which someone would put forward some view that being a bottom was physical, being a submissive was mental, and being a slave was spiritual... now tell me, what relationship do you want? Which has the superior ring to it? And when rating such relationships, where does vanilla fit in?

It doesn't matter. They could have an alphabetic association for all I care. I don't define or critique myself by the opinions of people that have no bearing on my reality. To give it a moment's thought is a choice. There is no superiority. The only validity granted is what the reader assigns.

quote:

Now answering such drivel does not mean I allowed someone to pollute me, it just means i posted on a message board. What i have found, though, is that both slaves and submissives on this site tend to get kinda fiery over the comparisons these days when they used to feed into it. I think this is a positive thing

I'd posit if they were secure in themselves and the roles they embodied there would be little reason to debate. These discussions will always take place because individuals are seeking confirmation for the person they believe themselves to be rather than who they really are. And I'm glad I don't have to read that here. I see enough of it elsewhere.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 97

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 12:56:53 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

It doesn't matter. They could have an alphabetic association for all I care. I don't define or critique myself by the opinions of people that have no bearing on my reality. To give it a moment's thought is a choice. There is no superiority. The only validity granted is what the reader assigns.

There is also a choice to weigh in with a differing view, which is what the fora are for, and after all it is what we are doing right now.

You, yourself, commented on those who "judge doormats", and did not seem much appreciative of that line of thinking. I don't appreciate judging anyone else's dynamic. it does not mean that my voicing my lack of appreciation for this is somehow allowing someone to "live in my head", anymore than you voicing the same thoughts on those who comment on "doormats"... I really see no difference.

quote:

I'd posit if they were secure in themselves and the roles they embodied there would be little reason to debate. These discussions will always take place because individuals are seeking confirmation for the person they believe themselves to be rather than who they really are. And I'm glad I don't have to read that here. I see enough of it elsewhere.

I do not remember the last time I saw a slave v submissive thread... if there were I would begrudgingly weigh in, not so much because I care to, but because I believe those who are new to this site may want to know there is no One Twue Way or One Twue View or One Twue Definition.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/23/2010 12:57:10 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 98

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 1:42:51 PM

porcelaine

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Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There is also a choice to weigh in with a differing view, which is what the fora are for, and after all it is what we are doing right now.

You, yourself, commented on those who "judge doormats", and did not seem much appreciative of that line of thinking. I don't appreciate judging anyone else's dynamic. it does not mean that my voicing my lack of appreciation for this is somehow allowing someone to "live in my head", anymore than you voicing the same thoughts on those who comment on "doormats"... I really see no difference.

You realize my comments are in reference to information you disclosed? And whether you allowed that to occur is only something you can answer. I have no clue.

They're all points of view. And some comments are meant to excite and entice others to join the fray. Pack mentality exists in forums and my remarks regarding the supposed doormat is where that stems from. We saw similar behavior when SocratesNot used to post.

quote:

I do not remember the last time I saw a slave v submissive thread... if there were I would begrudgingly weigh in, not so much because I care to, but because I believe those who are new to this site may want to know there is no One Twue Way or One Twue View or One Twue Definition.

What's really interesting is how that term never comes up outside of this space. Diversity is a forgone conclusion. It needn't be articulated.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 99

RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/23/2010 2:25:17 PM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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[hijack]

Julia,

The consensus over yonder is that your avatar is hot. It would be a perfect tool for the hypnosis. thread.

[/as you were]

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 100

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