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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 1:07:18 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

First of all, the Divine does not intervene in our universe on its own volition.

How do you know?

Logic requires it. Intervening on its own volition would interfere with free will and with the purpose of creation.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 1:08:14 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Why not just look around…feel the earth beneath you…then let your mind drift…do you think all around you is random chance… something from nothing with time neither beginning nor ending… or…do you feel the touch of intelligence, power, and a purpose for creation even if you don‘t understand it?


Butch, our minds hunger for understanding. That's the nature of the human mind ... to question what it encounters.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 1:09:40 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

First of all, the Divine does not intervene in our universe on its own volition.

How do you know?

Logic requires it. Intervening on its own volition would interfere with free will and with the purpose of creation.



What makes you think there is a purpose to creation?

What makes you believe Will is free?

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 1:10:53 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemandingOwner1

Descartes thought of it as a simple risk/benefit analysis:

If you believe in God, and there is no God, then you end up simply disappearing when you die

If you do NOT believe in God, and there is a God, then you end up burning in hell for eternity

His conclusion was 'believe in God, there is no downside and plenty of upside' though stated much more elegantly.



Pascal I believe....Pascal's Wager.....

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 1:19:38 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
What makes you think there is a purpose to creation?

Egyptian mythology asserts there is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
What makes you believe Will is free?

Ask your domme.

< Message edited by Rule -- 7/18/2010 1:20:07 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 1:20:04 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemandingOwner1
Descartes thought of it as a simple risk/benefit analysis:

If you believe in God, and there is no God, then you end up simply disappearing when you die

If you do NOT believe in God, and there is a God, then you end up burning in hell for eternity

His conclusion was 'believe in God, there is no downside and plenty of upside' though stated much more elegantly.

Descartes had a simple mind.



Yes Rule....the man who was a mathematical genuis....the man who ushered in the era of Modern Philosophy.....the man whose legacy was to leave us with the idea that nothing is certain......the man whose ideas modern philosophers are grappling with in an attempt to find a solution....still....400 years later.......had a simple mind.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 1:31:43 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
What makes you think there is a purpose to creation?

quote:

Egyptian mythology asserts there is.


Egyptian mythology? Fuck. Not worth a reply, Rule.



< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/18/2010 1:33:44 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 2:33:06 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

So, you don't "have" to go to church then?


Your point?


Julia, I don't know anything about the Taoist faith. I was just wondering which day of the week you guys go to church.


Taoists do not go to church...Some Taoists are Atheists.

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS366&q=taoism&aq=f&aqi=g-p1g4g-s1g2g-s2&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=CbOiFJlBDTJfwMY7IigOr_NWbAQAAAKoEBU_QPBzU






Julia, hey,......I think I like this religion; "action through inaction". ( "Taoism, the Lazy Man's Religion!")No need to go to church every week, do you guys at least have any type of meetings or conventions or anything like that? You know, a bunch of Taoists rent hotels in differant cities for a "convention", wear funny hats and chase whores up and down the hallways,... things like that?
I'd be a great Taoist! "Hey! You can't chase whores up and down the hallways!"
"Sure I can, I'm a Taoist! It's part of our "Religion" "You know, the "Mother Earth thing!"
"Oh, OK,  sorry, just try not to disturb the other guests."
Yup, Julia and Popeye,...Taoists!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 7/18/2010 2:37:11 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 2:42:09 PM   
BKSir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Julia, hey,......I think I like this religion; "action through inaction". ( "Taoism, the Lazy Man's Religion!")No need to go to church every week, do you guys at least have any type of meetings or conventions or anything like that? You know, a bunch of Taoists rent hotels in differant cities for a "convention", wear funny hats and chase whores up and down the hallways,... things like that?
I'd be a great Taoist! "Hey! You can't chase whores up and down the hallways!"
"Sure I can, I'm a Taoist! It's part of our "Religion" "You know, the "Mother Earth thing!"
"Oh, OK,  sorry, just try not to disturb the other guests."
Yup, Julia and Popeye,...Taoists!


Well, there's nothing saying you CAN'T chase whores, but, we don't really have any silly hats. The whole mother earth thing, yeah, that's someone else.

Here, THIS ARTICLE, or rather, set thereof, about Taoism may help you. Judging by your last post, you may be a bit scared of the title of the site, being 'religioustolerance.org', but don't worry. You can still go ahead and be as offensive as always if you like.

That's the beautiful thing about choices. You can choose to be an uneducated jerk about other peoples religions, and I can choose to try and at least change the 'uneducated' part.

_____________________________

We'll begin with a spin, traveling in a world of my creation. What we'll see will defy explanation.

I am the voices in your head.

BiggKatt Studios

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 3:18:15 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BKSir

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Julia, hey,......I think I like this religion; "action through inaction". ( "Taoism, the Lazy Man's Religion!")No need to go to church every week, do you guys at least have any type of meetings or conventions or anything like that? You know, a bunch of Taoists rent hotels in differant cities for a "convention", wear funny hats and chase whores up and down the hallways,... things like that?
I'd be a great Taoist! "Hey! You can't chase whores up and down the hallways!"
"Sure I can, I'm a Taoist! It's part of our "Religion" "You know, the "Mother Earth thing!"
"Oh, OK,  sorry, just try not to disturb the other guests."
Yup, Julia and Popeye,...Taoists!


Well, there's nothing saying you CAN'T chase whores, but, we don't really have any silly hats. The whole mother earth thing, yeah, that's someone else.

Here, THIS ARTICLE, or rather, set thereof, about Taoism may help you. Judging by your last post, you may be a bit scared of the title of the site, being 'religioustolerance.org', but don't worry. You can still go ahead and be as offensive as always if you like.

That's the beautiful thing about choices. You can choose to be an uneducated jerk about other peoples religions, and I can choose to try and at least change the 'uneducated' part.


BK, hey man I'm all about religious tolerance! I was even thinking about starting my own church!
And you have to have silly hats, that's part of the "schtick." That's how we all know each other! And I'm not an uneducated jerk, I'm just trying to inject my own "style" as it were into Taoism. I mean I could really shake that religion up and make it a religion *everyone* would want to join!
The money would be rolling in! We'd all be driving Cadillac Escalades! And no more "robes" and slippers! We'd be wearing Armani suits and $600 allegator shoes just like the lobbyists on "K" street in Washington, D.C.!
I'm talking "living up to our full human potential" here!
"There's nothing saying you CAN'T chase whores." That's good, we're making progress here! See? We're "progressives!"
Hey! "The Progressive Taoists!" I like it!!!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 7/18/2010 3:20:56 PM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 3:36:21 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

There is no free will if there`s an implied threat of violence if you don`t or if you do,you get tons of good stuff.

A threat of violence if you do or don't do something is certainly coercive, but it doesn't invalidate your free will. You are still perfectly free to choose to do it anyway. Take the example of a gun to your head and a demand for your money. You might say you "had no choice" in the situation, but the reason you "had no choice" was because your values (the value you place on your life) did not allow you one. Or to put it another way, you evaluated the situation and chose the outcome with the highest value to you. In other circumstances, a threat to your life might result in you making a different choice.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/18/2010 3:38:02 PM >

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 3:42:30 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		I feel more like Bull.I`m really not sure.

Not sure I`ll ever be sure and a little envious of those who are dead sure they have figured it out for themselves.

The question is directed mostly at Christians,this is Christian dogma.But the Muslims share a similar view.Not exactly the same but close enough that there`s no real difference.Join or burn in hell.

This question about faith and free will has been with me since the 1st time a born again tried to "save" me.I`ve had at least 5 attempts at saving my soul.

The born again friends and strangers who tried to "save" me were most sincere.From what I gather,they really do believe the dogma and are desperate almost,to "save" you.Like a lifeguard and a victim drowning,they feel compelled to act and must act otherwise there will be a tragedy.

I`m completely happy not being aliened with any church or group.I used to go with my g/f to be with her more than for the service.I think church is as much about community as it is about things spiritual.

As live and let live as I am,those that attempt to foist their beliefs and prejudices on others bother me.That seems to be the opposite of religious freedom.

I believe freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 3:50:44 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

There is no free will if there`s an implied threat of violence if you don`t or if you do,you get tons of good stuff.

A threat of violence if you do or don't do something is certainly coercive, but it doesn't invalidate your free will. You are still perfectly free to choose to do it anyway. Take the example of a gun to your head and a demand for your money. You might say you "had no choice" in the situation, but the reason you "had no choice" was because your values (the value you place on your life) did not allow you one. Or to put it another way, you evaluated the situation and chose the outcome with the highest value to you. In other circumstances, a threat to your life might result in you making a different choice.

K.




What if the choice was a gun to the head if you don`t or suitcase full of cash if you do.An offer you can`t refuse,to put it another way.

Yes,technically there are two choices.But given the ramifications of either choice,can one say the they are choosing without undue influence?


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/18/2010 3:52:15 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 3:57:15 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Julia, hey,......I think I like this religion; "action through inaction". ( "Taoism, the Lazy Man's Religion!")No need to go to church every week, do you guys at least have any type of meetings or conventions or anything like that? You know, a bunch of Taoists rent hotels in differant cities for a "convention", wear funny hats and chase whores up and down the hallways,... things like that?
I'd be a great Taoist! "Hey! You can't chase whores up and down the hallways!"
"Sure I can, I'm a Taoist! It's part of our "Religion" "You know, the "Mother Earth thing!"
"Oh, OK,  sorry, just try not to disturb the other guests."
Yup, Julia and Popeye,...Taoists!


I would like to see you meditate for at least 20 minutes a day and then call me lazy... whatever dude.... I could say that organized church religion is for the mentally lazy, but I don't believe that is necessarily true....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 3:59:52 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

What if the choice was a gun to the head if you don`t or suitcase full of cash if you do.An offer you can`t refuse,to put it another way.

Yes,technically there are two choices.But given the ramifications of either choice,can one say the they are choosing without undue influence?

Let's see, a gun to my head if I don't kill my family, or a suitcase full of cash if I do... I think that's an offer I can refuse. "Undue influence" doesn't negate free will, it just all too often negates character.

K.

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 4:06:45 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

What if the choice was a gun to the head if you don`t or suitcase full of cash if you do.An offer you can`t refuse,to put it another way.

Yes,technically there are two choices.But given the ramifications of either choice,can one say the they are choosing without undue influence?

Let's see, a gun to my head if I don't kill my family, or a suitcase full of cash if I do... I think that's an offer I can refuse. "Undue influence" doesn't negate free will, it just all too often negates character.

K.

no no.

Not that if.

If there`s any if,it`s about your salvation.Not your loved one`s lives.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 4:08:34 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

The OP is so garbled I dont know what its asking. If its a free will question the answer is that it doesnt matter. Either you have free will and your choices make a difference, or you have the illusion of free will and you make a choice that was pre-ordained. Either way the result is the same....what you choose is the path you take.


How do you make a choice if something is preordained?

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 7/18/2010 4:09:52 PM >

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 4:13:24 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

no no.

Not that if.

If there`s any if,it`s about your salvation.Not your loved one`s lives.

Actually, if it turns out that that's really the choice, I made it a long time ago. We'll probably run into each other down there.

K.

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 4:18:02 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
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That`s not fair.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 4:20:37 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I believe in a G-d.  It is obvious that something greater than man created the world - the only question is whether that something has intelligence or was random chance.  I believe that it was not random chance.


Why?

quote:



G-d has given me life, a very nice existence, and people who care for me.  I figure that He's due thanks from me just for that, without making further demands upon Him.



Unless you prove his existence I don't think it makes sense to thank him for yours.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 60
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