RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias

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crazyml -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 7:23:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius I think it is because people finally stopped being cowed into going along with what they were told was right when the underlying falseness started to be shown and the whole thing unraveled. To me, anything smacking of political correctness is treated as the hate speech and divisiveness it is and I reject it rather violently. This makes a few of the responses so far both amusing and pathetic in their, for the so called dominants who are uttering them, slavish devotion to lies and their submission to the will of the liars that makes it so for me. Be well.... Malkinius Out of interest... what is the "underlying falseness" of the feminist movement? And to level set ... when it comes to "political correctness" that is "hate speech and divisiveness" would "A woman should be paid the same as a man for the same job" qualify as PC hate-speech? I would hope that if someone, me for instance, made a statement of fact that was wrong you'd point it out in specific terms. As it happens - I made a factual error in one of my posts... I implied that the adjusted wage imbalance was 30% or so, when according to wikipedia it's 12% overall but significantly more in some positions - For VP or equivalent roles in the UK the gap was recently reported to be 23%.

jujubeeMB -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 7:41:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB I think anti-feminist men are greatly intimidated by feminists, because we're not supposed to be talking, except to agree with them. And I think anti-feminist women are either over-analyzing the concept and rejecting the term because they're misunderstanding it, or they're trying to impress the men who are intimidated by feminists. Perhaps they were liberated on the kneel and discovered their rightful place under his hand? But what's shocking is the venom. There's a real disgust for those that haven't been enlightened. I actually totally buy that for individuals. I think, in some ways, that's the essence of a really deep, 24/7 submission: the discovery that your rightful place is under the hand of whomever has brought you willingly to that place. But the problem with being anti-feminist is that they are not just speaking about themselves, they're dragging me and every other woman on earth into it too. I didn't consent to be considered inferior by anyone, and any woman who believes me to be because of her own personal wants and desires is doing so against my will.

Malkinius -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 8:11:22 PM)
Greetings crazyml.... quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml Not so long ago, society was "set up" so that Africans could be taken from their countries and made into slaves... I'm not entirely sure that "society was set up that way..." necessarily means it was a good reason. <snip> I think you ought to study history more. Africans enslaving Africans may be the original slaves and owners if, as is expected, some form of slavery goes back into Paleolithic and earlier times. It could pre-date Homo Sapiens but I have no proof of that. It certainly predates written history by millennia. Oh....by the way...the last legal slave owning country in the world was in Africa (Ethiopia if I remember correctly) and it was black Africans enslaving black Africans. It wasn't even an Arab or North African country. Snide attempts at white and North American bashing just won't work on this subject. You have your facts skewed by the lies which have been told about slavery for the last couple of centuries and especially the last 50-75 years. Be well.... Malkinius

IronBear -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 8:19:13 PM)
G'day Malkinius mate, Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the slave trade into the Caribbean Islands and South America well established by the Spanish, French and later the British at about the same time it was established in the US.. Don't have time to research it at the moment but it sticks in my mind that it was.. I think what we see so often is that the focus is on US thingies where as there is a whole world out here....

Malkinius -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 8:31:21 PM)
Greetings crazyml.... quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml Out of interest... what is the "underlying falseness" of the feminist movement? That depends on which form or better yet, wave of feminism you are talking about. There have been several. The gender feminists are the worst. They are not the same as the original feminist movement which you reference below. quote: And to level set ... when it comes to "political correctness" that is "hate speech and divisiveness" would "A woman should be paid the same as a man for the same job" qualify as PC hate-speech? Don't confuse any of the financial equality statements with the all men are rapists and all sex, even consensual sex, with men is rape. Also anything with a patriarchal term in it. The first is fine and good as far as I am concerned. The latter is based on hatred and envy and a search for power and sometimes money. Any time any group sets one group against another, that is divisiveness and ends up promoting hate of the "other" group or groups. When you try to change the language to demote or deride someone else is a form of hate and it certainly is an attempt to control by the old divide and conquer method along with saying that some group is a victim group therefore they deserve to punish whomever they are told made them a victim. The most common villain is a white male which is why for the last decade or two they have been the only group it was safe and politically correct to insult and blame for everything and try to make them pay for every imagined or real offense that someone can come up with. quote: I would hope that if someone, me for instance, made a statement of fact that was wrong you'd point it out in specific terms. As it happens - I made a factual error in one of my posts... I implied that the adjusted wage imbalance was 30% or so, when according to wikipedia it's 12% overall but significantly more in some positions - For VP or equivalent roles in the UK the gap was recently reported to be 23%. I have been. I don't do it often enough. I just don't usually have the time and most threads are not worth my time. This one just happened to have missed the reality of what is happening and has been happening and I had to say something. Be well.... Malkinius

Malkinius -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 8:41:37 PM)
Greetings IronBear.... quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear G'day Malkinius mate, Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the slave trade into the Caribbean Islands and South America well established by the Spanish, French and later the British at about the same time it was established in the US.. Don't have time to research it at the moment but it sticks in my mind that it was.. I think what we see so often is that the focus is on US thingies where as there is a whole world out here.... Actually, it was given by a Pope to some merchants from the Netherlands who sold the rights to the Genoise and then it spread to the Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch and then on to other nations as people found a profit to be made. The trade predated everything but some very limited Spanish settlements in what is now the US. They imported Africans because the various Indian tribes such as the Aztecs and Incas proved both too hard to enslave and too easily affected by European diseases and there became too few people to work the fields and mines. Most of the early traders were Spanish and they bought the Africans from the Arab traders and later from the Africans in the current countries of Ghana, Nigeria and the others in same area. I think some of that was due to the sea routes making transit easier. The whole trade was in place for two centuries before the US was created and we were not the last country in the Americas, I think, to outlaw slavery. As I recall it was tried in Australia and the South Pacific as well and didn't work. I am not including the whole Indentured Servitude system that mostly involved whites, not blacks. Be well.... Malkinius

domiguy -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 8:42:07 PM)
Show me the proof that things are changing back to a male dominated society....where is your proof her on Earth? Women are filling more roles as CEO's and entering more male dominated careers than at an point in the history of this country. Tell me Gorean. Back up your words. Anything that smacks of political correctness flies in the face of your antiquated and rather sad Gorean views. so your views on slavery are the only ones that are worth of consideration. You get confronted and your only response is to refer that comments that confront your views as being "snide." Just because Goreans relish the idea of slavery does not make it something noble or to be praised or accepted. Yes, there were indentured servants that worked their way to freedom. In most the cases of human enslavement the slaves were treated in a horrible fashion. You should read more.. I did however really enjoy this part of your post...."It could pre-date Homo Sapiens but I have no proof of that." Then why mention it? It leads one to believe that your entire opinion lacks proof and cannot be backed up. Typical Gorean crap.

Jeffff -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 8:42:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius Don't confuse any of the financial equality statements with the all men are rapists and all sex, even consensual sex, with men is rape. Also anything with a patriarchal term in it. The first is fine and good as far as I am concerned. The latter is based on hatred and envy and a search for power and sometimes money. Any time any group sets one group against another, that is divisiveness and ends up promoting hate of the "other" group or groups. When you try to change the language to demote or deride someone else is a form of hate and it certainly is an attempt to control by the old divide and conquer method along with saying that some group is a victim group therefore they deserve to punish whomever they are told made them a victim. The most common villain is a white male which is why for the last decade or two they have been the only group it was safe and politically correct to insult and blame for everything and try to make them pay for every imagined or real offense that someone can come up with. That is a rather narrow definition of Feminism.

juliaoceania -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 8:44:36 PM)
There are millions of human beings kept as slaves to this day, and you are right, there is nothing redeeming about that, especially children that are chattel.

jujubeeMB -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 8:48:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius Don't confuse any of the financial equality statements with the all men are rapists and all sex, even consensual sex, with men is rape. Also anything with a patriarchal term in it. The first is fine and good as far as I am concerned. The latter is based on hatred and envy and a search for power and sometimes money. Any time any group sets one group against another, that is divisiveness and ends up promoting hate of the "other" group or groups. When you try to change the language to demote or deride someone else is a form of hate and it certainly is an attempt to control by the old divide and conquer method along with saying that some group is a victim group therefore they deserve to punish whomever they are told made them a victim. The most common villain is a white male which is why for the last decade or two they have been the only group it was safe and politically correct to insult and blame for everything and try to make them pay for every imagined or real offense that someone can come up with. That is a rather narrow definition of Feminism. It's also the biggest bunch of **** I've seen in a long time.

daintydimples -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 8:49:02 PM)
Note that the term "feminist" assume we all agree on the definition. I think we don't. I have not read all the responses (sorry, Friday night and all) -- but how I perceive the term "feminist' has nothing to do with female dominance. It has to do with female autonomy. It has to do with paying reverence to that part of yourself which is feminine (and so is not necessary gender based). JMO

porcelaine -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 8:58:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I know scads of women that are not naturally submissive outside of their D/s relationship. I know tons of 'nilla women and subs that would have no problem for taking Malkininius to task over this issue. They would tear him to shreds. I'm not naturally submissive. However, my saving grace is truthfully my femininity. It softens the sharp edges. But I've had to temper myself in the process. Otherwise I would be one heck of a steam roller. Though I do believe that's perfectly acceptable in some situations - i.e. the corporate arena. quote: It is your actions that define a person. You want to eat out of a dog bowl and proclaim you are an ardent feminist, go right ahead. I don't think anyone would be necessarily buying it if you chose to promote that aspect about your identity. It is a bit of a quandary in which to some your life might have aspects which are diametrically opposed. I think we bend a lot of lines in BDSM anyway. So this one isn't hard for me to fathom at all. Though I don't define myself as a feminist either. quote: Maybe a bit of a hijack ....It takes strength to submit effectively. Many men and women may not see it that way. Not at all. I think that ideology goes hand in hand with many of the misconceptions we promote. I touched on this briefly in Julia's thread when I discussed the fallacy of the doormat. Our problem is that we see strength as brutal force without understanding it has two sides. Perhaps I'll delve into that one day on here. I expounded on it yesterday over yonder. quote: I need a strong partner. I need a woman that is confident and sharp. I think I need a feminist. In that she has confidence, can stand up for herself and her beliefs and doesn't put herself second to any man outside of her relationship. Interestingly enough I think women with those personality types fare better with men that desire it. When she partners with a man that feels threatened by her strength he feels compelled to wrench it from her in a manner that often leaves her horribly injured. ~porcelaine

porcelaine -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 9:00:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daintydimples Note that the term "feminist" assume we all agree on the definition. I think we don't. I have not read all the responses (sorry, Friday night and all) -- but how I perceive the term "feminist' has nothing to do with female dominance. It has to do with female autonomy. It has to do with paying reverence to that part of yourself which is feminine (and so is not necessary gender based). I hope you'll expand on that if time permits. It's wonderful to read you! ~porcelaine

YourRagDoll -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 9:00:22 PM)
Will send CMmail for my response.

realwhiteknight -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 9:03:39 PM)
quote: Feminism moved from an emphasis on equality (the 1800's) to female dominance. Why do you think this? quote: I think it is because people finally stopped being cowed into going along with what they were told was right when the underlying falseness started to be shown and the whole thing unraveled. To me, anything smacking of political correctness is treated as the hate speech and divisiveness it is and I reject it rather violently. Is this because you just hate anything mainstream, or because you don't like the ideas for logical reasons?

porcelaine -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 9:03:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB I actually totally buy that for individuals. I think, in some ways, that's the essence of a really deep, 24/7 submission: the discovery that your rightful place is under the hand of whomever has brought you willingly to that place. But the problem with being anti-feminist is that they are not just speaking about themselves, they're dragging me and every other woman on earth into it too. I didn't consent to be considered inferior by anyone, and any woman who believes me to be because of her own personal wants and desires is doing so against my will. I've witnessed an anti-feminine variant as well. Where the softer elements of womanhood are derided. And once again it is coming from women and directed to other women. All submissive. How you can possibly be both is baffling but I suppose that doesn't matter. I would have to do more in depth study to determine if the backlash has actually created women that have a hidden dislike of their own gender. ~porcelaine

realwhiteknight -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 9:13:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius Greetings crazyml.... quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml Not so long ago, society was "set up" so that Africans could be taken from their countries and made into slaves... I'm not entirely sure that "society was set up that way..." necessarily means it was a good reason. <snip> I think you ought to study history more. Africans enslaving Africans may be the original slaves and owners if, as is expected, some form of slavery goes back into Paleolithic and earlier times. It could pre-date Homo Sapiens but I have no proof of that. It certainly predates written history by millennia. Oh....by the way...the last legal slave owning country in the world was in Africa (Ethiopia if I remember correctly) and it was black Africans enslaving black Africans. It wasn't even an Arab or North African country. Snide attempts at white and North American bashing just won't work on this subject. You have your facts skewed by the lies which have been told about slavery for the last couple of centuries and especially the last 50-75 years. Let's keep in mind he only meant in U.S. society were things set up that way, and it was simply an example of a highly unethical, institutionalized structure within a society, that was not a reflection of the natural order of things. He wasn't summarizing a historical, global study of slavery.

IronBear -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 9:31:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: realwhiteknight Let's keep in mind he only meant in U.S. society were things set up that way, and it was simply an example of a highly unethical, institutionalized structure within a society, that was not a reflection of the natural order of things. He wasn't summarizing a historical, global study of slavery. You speak for crazyml now do you? Perhaps you are psychic or could it be you are his mother? I rather think the the lad is quite capable of speakling for himself especially as I fail to find any reference to show he, crazyml this is, was indeed referring to U.S. Society. Perhaps too you fail to recognise that part of a summary of a historical global study of slavery will show far more about the history and development of the slave trade in the U.S. Just my views and take on this matter. I shall await for crazyml to reply when he is able and illuminate us.

realwhiteknight -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 9:36:34 PM)
quote: I did however really enjoy this part of your post...."It could pre-date Homo Sapiens but I have no proof of that." Then why mention it? It leads one to believe that your entire opinion lacks proof and cannot be backed up. True, Domi. I have to say, the concept of slavery pre-dating H. sapiens is almost laughable. (Julia should weigh in on this, as we were all discussing primate behavior and her experiences digging in a cramped pit in 95% heat for grad school on another thread). I certainly imagine the occasional kidnapping of an odd member of another group, or even battles between small tribes of pre- H Sapiens (H erectus, H habilis and even Neanderthals under some categorizations) but all individuals living in the early environment would be much more invested in pure survival than trying to capture/enslave others especially when it carried such a great risk to themselves. Even if some were added to the group for breeding or social purposed, to add to a dying population for example, those captured would have assimilated for survival and could have not properly been referred to as 'slaves'. I mean, can anyone really imagine a neanderthal trying to enslave other neanderthals to do what, built railroad tracks for their lazy masters? Hunt bison en masse? Be raped and how would they not try to escape? Did they have chains or guns to keep them? omg I can't believe I have to argue this. Slavery was based in economics and greed. Higher forms of technology and complex, stationary, large scale societies were necessary for it to occur than were present in the early hominid environment. To ever view slavery as some kind of nature-based phenomena, that began at the pure, beautiful, 'dawn of time' is the most disgusting sort of ignorance and justification of pure evil.

realwhiteknight -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/23/2010 9:39:10 PM)
quote: s on sl quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius Don't confuse any of the financial equality statements with the all men are rapists and all sex, even consensual sex, with men is rape. Also anything with a patriarchal term in it. The first is fine and good as far as I am concerned. The latter is based on hatred and envy and a search for power and sometimes money. Any time any group sets one group against another, that is divisiveness and ends up promoting hate of the "other" group or groups. When you try to change the language to demote or deride someone else is a form of hate and it certainly is an attempt to control by the old divide and conquer method along with saying that some group is a victim group therefore they deserve to punish whomever they are told made them a victim. The most common villain is a white male which is why for the last decade or two they have been the only group it was safe and politically correct to insult and blame for everything and try to make them pay for every imagined or real offense that someone can come up with. That is a rather narrow definition of Feminism. It's also the biggest bunch of **** I've seen in a long time. What I find more absurd is that I've seen worse.

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