How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"?

How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (Full Version)

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AAkasha -> How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/24/2010 11:52:29 AM)
Because I am aggressively flirtacious in vanilla land, I've met a lot of people who were regularly kink and/or in femdom/female led relationships, but who were not involved in any online BDSM community or any munch, fetish party circuit or live community. This doesn't mean they are less-than kinky; they just elected to have vanilla friends as their core circle, and kept BDSM as private betwen them and their partner. What percentage of the overall BDSM enthusiast lifestyle do you think the "BDSM Online Community" and "BDSM Munch/party/club" lifestyle groups make up the entire kinky universe as a whole -- let's say, for argument's sake, you consider a kinky person someone who does BDSM-charged sensuality or sexuality more than "vanilla" sensuality/sexuality as a whole, and/or has an agreed about power dynamic that is non traditional in their relationship, one that they don't readily share with outsiders. My guess is that the "kinky community" (online and/or real life) is as low as 10% of the overall kinky community (those who do BDSM as regularly, if not more, than those in the "community") - I'd also guess that there's a large number of kinky people who do kink in real life more than the self labeled kinksters. The one thing I have found is that when I meet a man who is submisisve/kinky who really had no idea (or no interest) in the "bdsm community," it seems that they generally have no trouble finding kinky partners - they just do it through trial and error, flirting, sharing their passion for it, or looking for clues. I think the BDSM "dating pool" is a LOT larger than people think. A lot is going on behind closed doors! Akasha

DomImus -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/24/2010 12:09:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I think the BDSM "dating pool" is a LOT larger than people think. A lot is going on behind closed doors! I could not agree more with this. I know because I lived it for years. I never became involved with the bdsm community proper until the internet became popular around the mid 90s. Before that I took it where I could find it with whatever willing partner I happened upon and it surprises me even now to look back and remember how often that happened. There were quite a few times it happened with women who had no particular interest in bondage and such - or even disliked the idea - but who were more interested in pleasing their partner. I have always felt that those were the most truly submissive women I have known in my life. Would the average vanilla woman go for the stuff I enjoy today? Likely not but back when my tastes were a bit tamer I had pretty good luck with the general female population.

porcelaine -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/24/2010 12:55:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha What percentage of the overall BDSM enthusiast lifestyle do you think the "BDSM Online Community" and "BDSM Munch/party/club" lifestyle groups make up the entire kinky universe as a whole -- let's say, for argument's sake, you consider a kinky person someone who does BDSM-charged sensuality or sexuality more than "vanilla" sensuality/sexuality as a whole, and/or has an agreed about power dynamic that is non traditional in their relationship, one that they don't readily share with outsiders. I think the BDSM "dating pool" is a LOT larger than people think. A lot is going on behind closed doors! My experiences outside of the Internet were pivotal in providing a rational framework for doing this and a tolerant attitude. I thank my lucky stars that's where it began. But I think the online community has a place within the larger spectrum. The people I encountered at venues and other events weren't a part of it. And I've met quite a few that don't have no interaction with the community in any fashion. All of my friends are in active power exchange relationships, seeking, or were at one point in their lives. They've never been the scene going sort. Whereas my Mentor prefers private events over local clubs. I'm positive your assertion is correct and we are but a microcosm of something bigger. I recently stated that my next partner would not come from within the fold but would hail from the corporate arena instead. I think there's a demographic that many overlook or never consider when they think about kink as a whole. ~porcelaine

BoiJen -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/24/2010 1:42:49 PM)
I think this where I'm gonna be the big "disagreer" (who's surprised...really?) I'm of the opinion that to be considered part of a "community" you have to be actively involved with other people. Even if all you do is say "hi" to the other folks that make up your community...you need to have some contact. Otherwise, no matter how much you have in common with the outside "community" (let's start using the word "group"), if you're not involved with them in some way, shape, or form, then you're not really part of the "group". The person may be kinky but by no means are they part of the kinky group because they chose not to be part of the kinky group. "I've been part of this 'group' for twenty years" except that might mean they indulged in their fetishes in private for 19 of those years. If they didn't interact or involve themselves with anyone based upon their kinky commonalities... how can they part of that group? By setting themselves in a "private" setting away from people, they've actively chosen to NOT be part of that group. I hope I'm making sense and not rambling. boi

leadership527 -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/24/2010 1:47:43 PM)
to paraphase, lots of people like creative sexuality and way more people have some sort of [at least minimal] leaning towards either dominance or submission than people who are exactly in the middle. Yeah, I think I'd have to agree with that. Not everyone finds the BDSM community to be a healthy, nurturing, comfortable place to be.

porcelaine -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/24/2010 3:14:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen The person may be kinky but by no means are they part of the kinky group because they chose not to be part of the kinky group. My friends have never desired that. I think it really is a matter of personal preference. While I may find merit in getting involved and attending events, they have other interests they'd rather explore that don't relate to their sexuality. But then again, they aren't on here in the forums either. It simply isn't something they invest energy in outside of the home. What I'm unwilling to do is suggest how anyone spends their time. I believe there is a fixation by some that engage in these practices to adopt the attitude that everyone embraces and/or desires that level of openness concerning their sexuality. I'm well aware that isn't the case. It doesn't make them lesser or more than. I have often wondered why there's a necessity to define where everyone fits for a subculture that places importance on self identity and acceptance. While they may not desire to be part of BDSM umbrella, asserting that is not the case doesn't necessarily make it so either. And why must the distinction be made at all? ~porcelaine

AAkasha -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/24/2010 3:50:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen The person may be kinky but by no means are they part of the kinky group because they chose not to be part of the kinky group. My friends have never desired that. I think it really is a matter of personal preference. While I may find merit in getting involved and attending events, they have other interests they'd rather explore that don't relate to their sexuality. But then again, they aren't on here in the forums either. It simply isn't something they invest energy in outside of the home. What I'm unwilling to do is suggest how anyone spends their time. I believe there is a fixation by some that engage in these practices to adopt the attitude that everyone embraces and/or desires that level of openness concerning their sexuality. I'm well aware that isn't the case. It doesn't make them lesser or more than. I have often wondered why there's a necessity to define where everyone fits for a subculture that places importance on self identity and acceptance. While they may not desire to be part of BDSM umbrella, asserting that is not the case doesn't necessarily make it so either. And why must the distinction be made at all? ~porcelaine Just as there might be a lot of very active "fans" in a particular subculture, doesn't mean just because they are not hardcore into the public aspects of the group doesn't mean they are not as capable, educated, or devoted. Or, maybe they find the trappings of that group to be stifling or not a good fit. What about "fans of Star Trek" vs. "Fans that go to Star Trek conventions"? I see a distinction somewhere with people who have their entire peer group or social group in that "community" and have an active need to either be included or in some cases prominent in that peer group. For me, that peer group is not kinky; if I had to affiliate myself with any peer group by association based on my friends or where I socialize, it would be more likely to be a professional organization in my career, or even a volunteer group where I have friends via common cause -- not the local BDSM munch, or this group online, or any kinky group. There's not enough in common, outside of BDSM, to make that work. Growing up, and still now, I was (am) a pretty die hard Star Wars "fan." I guess my age probably dictates that. I can still recite most of the original three movies, down to the line. I went to a Star Wars convention when I was a teenager. But that was the extent of that, and while I could still probably sit down with any number of "star wars fans" and probably find a lot in common, this is not a peer group I would devote time to, because beyond that we have nothing in common. The same goes with a few bands that I still am passionate about that carry over into my adult life now; I know some people, who I would call casual friends, who still follow said bands and pretty much all their closest friends do also. I am pretty savvy about said band and have many stories to tell myself, but I would not consider these people a community I want to put above my other peer groups, in order of importance. I know hockey fans who follow my local team, and I see them at charity events. I am a die hard Ducks fan. However, I am not on the "booster club," because these people put the team, quite often, and their other duck fan friends, as the core of their social circle. Based on how many games scene, players met, out-of-town arenas visited, I probably would be "right up there" in my experiences, but hanging out with this group, going to movies, or if I were single, dating someone from this group because of this interest, wouldn't work for me. It's a subculture I recognize but, like any sub culture, I don't feel a burning need to be accepted or gain status in. When I look at all these "subcultures" I see a common thing - the exclusion of "outsiders" in many cases, when you get to the most passionate people, and a one-track-mind that is unfortunate and limiting, in my opinion. I also see, in almost all of them, ridiculous politics and positioning, to try to be important in that community. In all of these cases, whether it be fans of a movie series, followers of a band or simply passionate sports fanatics, they all comprise an inclusive "subculture" that is still a much smaller number than the actual number of people who, around the world, share that interest and passion but don't do it at the exclusion of other things. I think BDSM followers, as a whole, is a HUGE number, and the "community" is just a small, small fraction. Akasha

LadyPact -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/24/2010 5:12:34 PM)
I'm not especially one to buy into the "community" of online. It just really doesn't work for Me. This is not to say that each person online isn't a human being on the other side of the screen. It does mean to Me that it can be very limiting. I don't associate the word "community" just because two people have something in common via the internet. For example, OP, I happen to know that you and I both play WOW. Do you really consider us both of the same "community" on that basis? This is not to say that there aren't plenty of people out there that absolutely base their entire life around WOW. They read the latest notes, do their socializing through their guild, continually work on improving their toon's skills, become guild leaders, eat, live, and breath the game. They literally do make it their life. But it still isn't necessarily a community. Then comes along someone like Me that just dabbles at the game. I play it, so that means that I'm absolutely participating in it during My leisure time. I'm just a player like them in that I enjoy it. Nothing more, nothing less. Private BDSM doesn't mean that a person isn't kinky. It just means they prefer to do it in their own way. If it's working for them, great. They may have exactly what they want. It also saves them from some of the online that many kinky folks might be much better without. There's no way to figure out how many kinky people are in the world vrs the number who actually participate in the community. There's really no way to get an accurate estimate, even with a random poll. (Many people won't admit they are kinky, even though it's the truth, so that skews the results right there.) The margin of error would be too high due to various factors. It's not something I concern Myself with a whole lot. What gets someone hard or makes them wet isn't of much interest to Me. If they are having fun, more power to them.

laurell3 -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/24/2010 5:57:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen The person may be kinky but by no means are they part of the kinky group because they chose not to be part of the kinky group. My friends have never desired that. I think it really is a matter of personal preference. While I may find merit in getting involved and attending events, they have other interests they'd rather explore that don't relate to their sexuality. But then again, they aren't on here in the forums either. It simply isn't something they invest energy in outside of the home. What I'm unwilling to do is suggest how anyone spends their time. I believe there is a fixation by some that engage in these practices to adopt the attitude that everyone embraces and/or desires that level of openness concerning their sexuality. I'm well aware that isn't the case. It doesn't make them lesser or more than. I have often wondered why there's a necessity to define where everyone fits for a subculture that places importance on self identity and acceptance. While they may not desire to be part of BDSM umbrella, asserting that is not the case doesn't necessarily make it so either. And why must the distinction be made at all? ~porcelaine Agreed porcelaine, well put. Man reading that type of self-serving crap distinguishing who is better gets old and as many of us have found recently, it does nothing to further any "community" at all and only pushes people apart. Aakasha it may be the case that many people are mildly kinky and not aware of any "lifestyle" or having any desire to participate in it, however, I have found by experience that telling a mildly kinky guy that you want them to tie you up and hurt you, does NOT go over well the vast majority of the time! [;)]

Missokyst -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/24/2010 10:12:21 PM)
Can't say for sure but I have always found kinky men. Or they have always found me. And that was prior to knowing BDSM was any different than anything else. If I thought it was normal, I am sure there were a lot more out there who shared that view. Or.. I was VERY lucky. Of course.. in Yatzee the odds of my rolling triple 5's is over 70%, luck may have played a part.

juliaoceania -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/24/2010 10:14:45 PM)
A lot of men would love the kink aspect of this, but they do not know how to accomplish the emotional aspects of D/s.... this is just my experience

mstrjx -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/24/2010 10:32:59 PM)
As someone who has dipped toes in both worlds, I would say from my limited experience that the number of people who practice wiitwd on some level far exceed scene-active people. This is what I base this on... Not a single one of my partners over the years have I met at a munch or a scene function. (There is one woman that I saw but not met at a convention and came to know through happenstance later on and was friends with for years, but we were never a couple (much to my great chagrine - the one that got away).) And knowing that I had access to the public scene, very few of those partners even wanted to get involved in the public realm. Personally, I like events and play parties but LOATHE munches, and don't venture out into groups unless I'm feeling desperate. But ask me to do a demo, I'm all over that. Jeff

juliaoceania -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/24/2010 10:47:59 PM)
I have never been to a public event, but the men I involve myself with all have

vield -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/24/2010 11:06:59 PM)
My experience has been that over the last 25 years more and more people are experimenting with what I call kink. Whether they call it kink or not depends upon their own definitions. Even a middle sized midwest city like Madison Wis. has gone from having the only one BDSM group in the state to having more than a dozen active groups of various interests, plus a bi-annual kinky weekend event. Many more groups have formed in many other local towns. We KNOW that the "gene pool" of kinky folks is far larger than the membership in active real time or on line groups, because we keep meeting more and more folks who have not attended events, munches or meetings, usually when they become partners with someone who is in a group. Jokes about kinky sex in ordinary conversation are common on TV and radio as well as in personal conversations. These references seem more & more to be seen as attractive, adventurous, and sexy, rather than shocking or scary as they were seen to be years ago.

seekingOwnertoo -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/25/2010 12:16:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I'd also guess that there's a large number of kinky people who do kink in real life more than the self labeled kinksters. The one thing I have found is that when I meet a man who is submisisve/kinky who really had no idea (or no interest) in the "bdsm community," it seems that they generally have no trouble finding kinky partners - they just do it through trial and error, flirting, sharing their passion for it, or looking for clues. I think the BDSM "dating pool" is a LOT larger than people think. A lot is going on behind closed doors! Akasha I do suspect this is a very accurate observation. There seems to be a lot more bedroom interest in light or moderate kinky, than the number of people posting online or joining a community represent. As a man, my I always talk with unescorted Ladies. And around the lake in the summer, there are a lot of them. In just the past few weeks, I have been asked … if I knew what a strap on was … have I ever considered being in an “open relationship” (she meant polyamorous but didn’t know it as a term) … and told I was so much like her dad, she thought I could bend her over and spank her. All in different conversations … with different “vanilla women”. So while I cannot break it down to Dominants versus submissive, I am sure there are a lot of bedroom kinky women out there. Yet I need to add … they are always shocked … when I am not shocked … by these types of conversations. ROFL ...

IronBear -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/25/2010 1:55:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen I think this where I'm gonna be the big "disagreer" (who's surprised...really?) I'm of the opinion that to be considered part of a "community" you have to be actively involved with other people. Even if all you do is say "hi" to the other folks that make up your community...you need to have some contact. Otherwise, no matter how much you have in common with the outside "community" (let's start using the word "group"), if you're not involved with them in some way, shape, or form, then you're not really part of the "group". The person may be kinky but by no means are they part of the kinky group because they chose not to be part of the kinky group. boi I think this where I'm gonna be the big "disagreer" (who's surprised...really?) You think?? What's the bet that more than a few flames happen over the definition of KINK? I'm of the opinion that to be considered part of a "community" you have to be actively involved with other people. Even if all you do is say "hi" to the other folks that make up your community...you need to have some contact. Otherwise, no matter how much you have in common with the outside "community" (let's start using the word "group"), if you're not involved with them in some way, shape, or form, then you're not really part of the "group". Jolly well said. I absolutely agree with your views here. I'm not part really, of a local group. Neets and I are members of one but due to work or financial constraints, we rarely get along to anything happening. Considering the negativity I get from Brisbane groups per se, I see no reason to attend more events. But then by nature I am not a social person and am more of a loaner, preferring my owm company that that of many others with the exceptions of people with whom I have already established some form of relationship. This is diametricaly opposed to Neets who is outgoing, generous of heart and loves people. The person may be kinky but by no means are they part of the kinky group because they chose not to be part of the kinky group. Spot on, together with what is KINK anyway, there are some things which I do and which are part of my being that others see as kinky. This is the only problem I see with the OP's Post which is well timed and well worthy of sensible discussion.

crazyml -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/25/2010 3:42:05 AM)
BoiJen, I agree with you. Being "kinky" or "into BDSM" is quite distinct from being a part of the "BDSM community". I'd go further and say that there is no single BDSM community - There's "this one" - CM, there's ALT, FetLife, Informed-Consent, the leather movement (perhaps the most organised of them all) then there are the munches and events (all of which have their own communities or groups). I'd bet that many of us are members of more than one community - and I'd also bet that all of them have subtly different "takes" on BDSM. So to answer the OP... there no BDSM community outside the BDSM community. Now... if the question had been "How many kinky BDSM loving people are not members of any BDSM community?" I'd reckon that the huge huge majority of people that enjoy one or more aspects of BDSM aren't part of a BDSM community - I have no scientific basis, but hell - I reckon we're outnumbered 1000-1!

crazyml -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/25/2010 4:10:31 AM)
Hey LadyPact, quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact This is not to say that there aren't plenty of people out there that absolutely base their entire life around WOW. They read the latest notes, do their socializing through their guild, continually work on improving their toon's skills, become guild leaders, eat, live, and breath the game. They literally do make it their life. But it still isn't necessarily a community. Then comes along someone like Me that just dabbles at the game. I play it, so that means that I'm absolutely participating in it during My leisure time. I'm just a player like them in that I enjoy it. Nothing more, nothing less. While I completely take your point about there being some pretty manifest differences between "online" and "meat space" communities... I think the WOW example you use meets pretty much all of the tests of "community". The Collins dictionary definition defines a community as: 1) The people living in one locality 2) the locality in which they live 3) a group of people having cultural, religious, ethnic, or other characteristics in common. Community[1] is simply a collective noun describing a collection of people Community[2] is a noun describing a geographical area Community[3] defines a set of people who have something in common. The three things are very different - I live in a community[1] called Blah, when talking about the residents of Blah we can say the Blah Community[2]. However, the nature of Blah means there is (alas) no Blah[3] community - There is no "community spirt", there are very few "community activities". I think when we refer to "community" we're most often talking about community[3] - a group of people that share common values/interests. Under that very simple (but dictionary defined) definition CM is a community. That isn't to say that it has to be your cup of tea, or that your sense that meat-space face to face interaction feels richer and more rewarding is in anyway wrong - (or that I don't share your misgivings). The thing is, (and I say this with the greatest respect) - you and I belong to the vinyl generation - We've actually bought records (Well - I'll bet we have - I'd not choke on my coffee if I learned you had Dark Side of the Moon on vinyl somewhere). As members of the vinyl generation we were bought up in an analogue meat-space world so our expectations are different. Today's digital-generation kids (people that have never even bought a CD let alone a record) conduct a huge proportion of their lives in an online context - seems weird to me, but totally natural to them.

hereyesruponyou -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/25/2010 11:14:27 AM)
Honestly I took the OP's question to mean more of the How many people are involved in aspects of BDSM without being actively involved in any specific organized BDSM community. I was one of those before I discovered "the community". From the time I was about 19 my bf and I explored all kinds of bdsm and general sexual adventurism. We did this for fun. We researched looking for books etc. We went through the Kama Suta and a silly little book of 50 sexual positions. We had no clue there even was a community...which there probably wasn't in our local area. It's still very limited here, unless we travel to the "big city". My experience has been in talking to people I have interacted with in many aspects of my life, is that conversation has gone from those titillating comments that used to shock, now get agreement. I think there is a huge group of people who explore Aspects of bdsm, but who will never be a part of "the community" no matter how you describe it. My personal opinion is great! It is a sign to me that more people are feeling comfortable enough with their sexuality to explore and enjoy it! Very good for them and for society as a whole. Better sex makes happier people, which makes for better physical and mental health

crazyml -> RE: How big is the BDSM "community" outside of "this bdsm community"? (7/25/2010 11:32:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hereyesruponyou My personal opinion is great! It is a sign to me that more people are feeling comfortable enough with their sexuality to explore and enjoy it! Very good for them and for society as a whole. Better sex makes happier people, which makes for better physical and mental health Bingo!

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