RE: "A Submissive's Place"

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heartfeltsub -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/3/2010 6:54:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4 quote: ORIGINAL: kiwisub12 Interesting. So you have to periodically have to metaphorically slap your sub up the side of the head and remind her who is the dom? I spent five years in a 24/7 relationship - and once in that five years did he punish me. And actually the punishment was the least of the repentance on my part- you could call it the icing on the cake. As a thinking adult and submissive, i am very capable of knowing when i screw up, and am very capable of putting myself back on my own place. I no more need putting in my place than does my dominant. And away we Goooooooooooo with the stereotypical image of asshole Dominants!! Let's jump on the bandwagon and throw a party!!! Seriously, where do you get this notion it involves being hit upside the fucking head... and not being pulled tightly against them.. them taking you by the hair... drawing your head back. Then nibbling upon your neck and pressing your body against the stove. Doing this when you are in some bratty mood or such? Some girls literally melt and their whole mood changes in 2.5 seconds flat without being bitch slapped upside the head. People are just only gonna mentally associate shit with abuse and assholes here, and it's gonna drift into la la la land. Maybe this is what my friend was talking about. I would put that in the same category as giving a yank on the chain to remind who is on which end. I don't see this as conquering, so I am still not sure if we are talking about the same thing. But it gave me something to think about. heartfelt

DesFIP -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/3/2010 7:08:01 AM)
When I read this in a profile it screams insecurity on the part of the dominant to me. Inside an ongoing relationship dynamic, of course there are times I'm wound up about things and not focused on him. So he needs to help me refocus myself. Which can be a word, a lifted eyebrow, or being dragged into his arms and held until I relax. And sometimes it means feeding me. Seriously, he forgets about meals and as my blood sugar drops, my mood worsens. So it isn't uncommon for him to ask what the hell's going on with me and me to answer that I'm hungry. Or thirsty, or need a break. A lot of time it's just the physical needs asserting themselves.

heartfeltsub -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/3/2010 7:08:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 quote: ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4 NOTE TO SELF = true submissives never need to be put back in their place (LOL) La La La La... for the record, some women love it when somebody put them back in their place, instead of letting them walk over them. (seriously, this is shit that vanilla none lifestyle women fucking talk about). I can't believe some people ain't keen on this concept. but who said anything about anyone walking over anyone? I agree, there's not alot of info in the OP. We're all making assumptions. I don't however, see miscommunications about lack of respect as really being role issues as much as relationship issues. Trust me, if someone I am dating acts like a jackass, I'm going to tell them. I would expect the same. That isn't putting me in my "submissive place." The only context I can really see this comment being relative to is with regard to sex and believe me, he can evoke that whining, whimpering, "jesus christ I would do anything for you right now" response incredibly easily, but there's no negative connotation involved. By the way, welcome back. I hope life is treating you well. i am sorry that there isn't a whole lot of information, i am really just trying to understand a concept that makes no sense to me. i am very submissive by nature, but i don't give that to just anyone, so i am not sure if the process i go through of getting to know if someone is safe to give that to, would be considered the process of being "conquered". So i am trying to gather information to try to understand a concept that truly boggles my mind, why would someone who has vowed to submit to someone keep making reinforce who is really in control and not just obey, i don't understand. So sorry for the lack of information, hopefully that explains it more. heartfelt

heartfeltsub -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/3/2010 7:13:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4 quote: ORIGINAL: kiwisub12 Good heavens - you DO have a vivid imagination! Nowhere in my post did i refer to asshole Dominants. In fact, i think i said my dominant only ever had to punish me once in five years - does that sound like an arsehole? and the hitting up the side of the head was metaphorical! and as far as i can tell, most submissives talk about their dominants in glowing terms - please reference me to posts of arsehole dominants by their submissives. I think people get from the boards what they want to see - i want to hear about wonderful dominants and their happy submissives , and perhaps those are the posts i remember. Where's all the posts from anybody saying, oh yeah... I love being put in my place in these kinds of situations or senarios being posted about. Personally, I see this topic strongly coupled with the concept of D/s reinforcement. What are the things that a Dom can do to reinforce the dynamic itself. Clearly, these are things that keep the D/s dynamic kicking and going on. You know the classic posts that occur on here from time to time, where a submissive expresses that their Dominant partner is not being very Dominant towards them anymore or in the relationship itself. So, in many regards this topic or the concept of a D putting the s in their place, actually if a form of D/s reinforcement (when it look at from the broad sense). The whole bit from the one guys profile, was more than likely a lot regarding the ways in which he re-enforces the D/s dynamic. Should not be a big mystery to figure out. He probally even listed a few rituals that he engages in to do this very thing. No shocker or suprise. That is part of what i was wondering, if what my friend meant was the idea of reinforcing the D/s relationship., to use the term that works for me, causing me to feel my submission. No, there wasn't any rituals etc on his profile and with the profiile guy i don't know him well enough to know what he meant, it was the combination of my friend's comments and the guy's profile that caused the question.

heartfeltsub -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/3/2010 7:15:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub Recently someone contacted me on the other side and when I looked at his profile, there was quite a bit about putting and keeping a submissive in her/his place. This caused me to wonder what the heck was meant by that. I tried to ask a Dominant friend I know and all he could come up with was something about conquering but that didn't make any more sense to me. So the question/s are these, What does it mean to you when you either hear/see that phrase or use that phrase. What is a submissive's place and how does one put/keep him/her in it? Is that something you look for in a D/s or M/s relatiionship and how does that manifest to you. In addition, are you looking to conquer or be conquered and how does that manifest? Thanks in advance, heartfelt Words have power... the phrase "put in your place" has the connotation that someone wants to become better than their natural station. It means not respecting your betters, like a social climber. I love men that have a good command of the English language, and the history of how that language evolved... if a person is "getting out of their place" historically speaking, this comes from England's class system, or a feudal system where "people have places"... Any man I would be interested in would know what that phrase meant, and if they said that to me it would mean they felt I aspired to be "more than" my natural place in this world. If someone wanted to restrict me to being inferior to them, it would not work out for me. It would mean they were highly insecure about their "place", and they were therefore already not on par with me. I want to be with someone that loves me being all I can be, and feels that our relationship is better for it. If they are threatened by my growth, they are just not going to get far in my life... Just me, etc The phrase strikes me the same way as you described. Thank you for your reply.

sexyred1 -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/3/2010 7:17:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4 quote: ORIGINAL: kiwisub12 Interesting. So you have to periodically have to metaphorically slap your sub up the side of the head and remind her who is the dom? I spent five years in a 24/7 relationship - and once in that five years did he punish me. And actually the punishment was the least of the repentance on my part- you could call it the icing on the cake. As a thinking adult and submissive, i am very capable of knowing when i screw up, and am very capable of putting myself back on my own place. I no more need putting in my place than does my dominant. And away we Goooooooooooo with the stereotypical image of asshole Dominants!! Let's jump on the bandwagon and throw a party!!! Seriously, where do you get this notion it involves being hit upside the fucking head... and not being pulled tightly against them.. them taking you by the hair... drawing your head back. Then nibbling upon your neck and pressing your body against the stove. Doing this when you are in some bratty mood or such? Some girls literally melt and their whole mood changes in 2.5 seconds flat without being bitch slapped upside the head. People are just only gonna mentally associate shit with abuse and assholes here, and it's gonna drift into la la la land. When the "putting in your place" involves what you just said, then it makes sense because that is hot. When the "putting in your place" involves some type of abuse (yes, Virginia, it does happen) then the person doing the putting is acting out of anger and not passion. I love being grabbed and having my hair pulled, etc. to get out of a mood or into one, but in my last relationship, my ex used to use that term as a way to demonstrate his insecurity and anger by doing either non consensual things or by being emotionally abusive. So don't get all upset when there are actually two sides to the topic. No one is picking on asshole Doms, there are good and bad ones all over.

heartfeltsub -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/3/2010 7:18:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder when Master uses that term with me it means that I've forgotten I'm his slave....I am talking over him, trying to lead, pull the reigns, etc.... Everyday life sometimes makes me feel like I need to take back some control even though I don't want to but sometimes feel like I have to and he has to remind me from time to time that I'm his slave. This may be what my friend meant. Thank you for your reply.

Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/3/2010 7:41:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub This is the part that I don't get, what if she doesn't ty to walk all over the person they are in a relatiionship with? What if after she has made the decision to bow the knee and submit to an individual, she actually obeys? Is there a type that needs as my friend indicated to conquer and apparently continue to conquer? Does that feed something? This is not about "true submission or anything else. Thanks for your reply, heartfelt If somebody ain't trying to walk all over, be a brat, and geee...everything is pretty damn peaceful and running smooth...any notions about trying to put anybody in their place is totally absurb, moot and pointless. In regards to a type as your friend indicates that thrives or requires this, yes there is a type. The world is full of all kinds of different types of people. Yeah, I would say it feeds something...but what it is may vary from person to person. I'm still very uncertain about what is or is not 'true' submission according to the book of universal truth (Pages seem to be missing from my copy). I think what is important is to accept and realize the differences in what makes people tick. You just can't randomly put a submissive and Dominant in a room together and have instant D/s that's gonna work. I will say this, there are some women that are very drawn to being put in their place, and they seem to function best in this environment. Take them out of that environment and they are bored, fall apart at the seams and are miserable as hell. Some people's hell are other peoples heaven or vice versa. We can engage in the popular and classic debate about things such as what is or is not true abuse. Why nice girls are drawn to assholes or why nice guys are drawn to complete bitches. (General concept that is talked about on the vanilla, none lifestyle level). Have you ever encountered a Happy couple, sharing warm fond memories of wicked fights they got into? Both smiling and happy as can be? Some people just don't seem to get it. Another example comes to mind, was seeing Ozzy and Sharon on Ellen. Sharon was talking about the time she threw a bottle at Ozzy and cracked him in the back of his head. Stuff that most people would consider abusive towards one another, yet there's a couple that is very much deeply in Love with one another. It really does not have to make perfectly sane or logical sense. Does not have to fit nice and neat into some idealistic relationship standard. In many regards, people have become rather intolerent of things that other people accept. Some people should be more of a live and let live mindset. In short, you need to figure out and deal with you yourself what is or is not right for you and your relationship. I still remember the day, I spang the news to my mother that I was into BDSM. We did not go into great detail about it. I was rather suprised at her reaction and what she had to say. "What two people do in their own lives and relationships is their business as long as it's consensual, and it's nobody else's business" Personally, I'm rather sick of people on both the extreme right and left of politics and such trying to control how people should live their lives. Face it, if the extreme liberals had their way...S&M would be outlawed because it would be considered as an act against humanity harming other human beings regardless if they wanted it or not. If the extreme right wing had their way, it would be outlawed because it's a sin and this is not the way God intended for humans live. Seriously, our society is reaching a point where there is a certain lack of tolerence and understanding. So I guess the issue here, is what is or is not submission or submissive behavior or even Dominant behavior from the politically correct point of view? I do think people need to figure out for themselves what is or is not right and acceptable for them and their relationships. If being put back in place is a dynamic accepted by two people, it's really nobody else's place or business to judge if it's true submission or not. It's what works for them. *In response to your response, what proof is there enough to say, that it's not really about submission for some types of girls?* You are not them, so how would you even begin to know?

NuevaVida -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/3/2010 7:56:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 When the "putting in your place" involves some type of abuse (yes, Virginia, it does happen) then the person doing the putting is acting out of anger and not passion. Or, like my ex, the man could be a sadistic SOB. At times there was anger involved, like if I asked for clarity on something that he didn't want to divulge, at other times if I began feeling "too confident" as a person, etc. I used to feel like I was kept in a box, and if I dared to peek my head up outside that box he'd smash it back down and close the lid. But it wasn't all anger driven. He just got his rocks off hurting my feelings. But then, that's what I signed up for, and that's where I stayed. But because of this, when I see "put in your place" I think of that type of scenario. And this isn't about any stereotypical image of bad dominants, either. Like sexyred1 said, there are good and bad people all over the place. I happened to give myself to a damaging one in the past. Now I belong to someone who doesn't feel the need to beat me down or stifle me to get what he wants from me. I find the contrast to be amazingly refreshing.

sexyred1 -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/3/2010 8:00:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 When the "putting in your place" involves some type of abuse (yes, Virginia, it does happen) then the person doing the putting is acting out of anger and not passion. Or, like my ex, the man could be a sadistic SOB. At times there was anger involved, like if I asked for clarity on something that he didn't want to divulge, at other times if I began feeling "too confident" as a person, etc. I used to feel like I was kept in a box, and if I dared to peek my head up outside that box he'd smash it back down and close the lid. But it wasn't all anger driven. He just got his rocks off hurting my feelings. But then, that's what I signed up for, and that's where I stayed. But because of this, when I see "put in your place" I think of that type of scenario. And this isn't about any stereotypical image of bad dominants, either. Like sexyred1 said, there are good and bad people all over the place. I happened to give myself to a damaging one in the past. Now I belong to someone who doesn't feel the need to beat me down or stifle me to get what he wants from me. I find the contrast to be amazingly refreshing. That seems to sum up what went on with mine and here I am thinking he was just an angry son of a bitch, but you are right, I think he just liked being sadistic and that was way more than I signed up for. Because of that experience, whenever I hear "put you in your place" I get a negative feeling which I hope will go away someday. I am happy for you NV, that you found someone to treat you better. :)

Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/3/2010 8:13:27 AM)
Thinking upon this, it should be rather a given for a Dominant to put somebody in their place if or when the occasion arises. It also should be a given that D/s would or should be reinforced a long the way. Why in the world, would anybody post a common sense given on a profile and stress it? It's a bit like saying "I love sex but seriously I really love to fuck.. and I seriously mean really fuck rough! You have no idea just how much I love to fuck!" LOL (I mean this should be a bit of a given, right?) He might have better luck saying "Wanted - Bratty Girl who enjoys being put in their place". This would have added a lot more clarity to things.

NuevaVida -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/3/2010 8:26:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 Because of that experience, whenever I hear "put you in your place" I get a negative feeling which I hope will go away someday. The negative stuff does go away. Sometimes it just takes reminding that I'm in the present now, and the past is just that. quote: I am happy for you NV, that you found someone to treat you better. :) Thank you, sexyred1. Without the past, I wouldn't have the appreciation I do for the goodness. :)

NuevaVida -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/3/2010 8:27:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4 He might have better luck saying "Wanted - Bratty Girl who enjoys being put in their place". This would have added a lot more clarity to things. You seem to be assuming that "being put in place"is automatically associated with brattiness. It is not.

laurell3 -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/3/2010 8:32:52 AM)
Again, that all depends on the context. Reinforcing the relationship doesn't really require any overt actions, it can actually be just being the type of leader that someone would want to follow ie: caring, nuturing, loving, honorable, open, honest and trustworthy. I think often people forget that we don't surrender to a role, we surrender to a person. Like sexyred and NuevaVida, I was in a relationship that was wonderful other than his propensity to occasionally and randomly toss out the meanest things he could say. I didn't see it as a role thing, maybe it was in his mind at the time. I did see it as his inability to truely be intimate with another human being and acting on his fear of that by pushing me away. I left him standing in an airport one day and never looked back. My "place" isn't with someone that views me as a role. My point obviously isn't that I have any idea what the person's profile meant. None of us really do. However, I see people get themselves in trouble way too often when they focus on role and not on human beings. We never stop being the human being that we are with needs even when we agree to a role.

juliaoceania -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/3/2010 8:38:54 AM)
Here are some additional thoughts I have on this subject.. like my thoughts are necessarily important... LOL... but I am going to offer them even if I have already contributed some here.... On a deep visceral level I have worked my ass off to change my station in life. I am the first in my family to get an education. I am constantly trying to be a better person than I was yesterday. I believe I can become whomever I wish to be and my life is a fulfillment of that idea. The idea that some man would "keep me in my place" is an attack on all I have tried to do, and I suppose I feel this is on a spiritual level for me... I don't have a "place" to be put in because my place is a constantly changing and evolving thing. I think it sounds much more appealing, positive, and nurturing to say "I am creating a place for you in my life where I will keep you for OUR relationship", as opposed to just putting me there

Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/3/2010 11:40:38 PM)
It's awesome for people to take control of their lives and make positive changes it in. Sincerely this is awesome and I'm 100% for it. I can understand the implications of being involved with somebody who tears you down and is generally mean and abusive. The character of the Dominant involved, are they the type of person to come home and kick the dog for no good reason at all. I think there is a lot to a persons heart and soul. I was reflecting upon the Ozzy and Sharon, both have a great big heart.. even though they have done crazy things. I by no means suggest, that harmful abuse is something to be tolerated. Harmful mindless abuse that stems from anger and hate. Some people hate the world, hate themselves and their lives and look for an outlet for that anger. I think the place that people belong in, is something that they themselves need to figure out. At times, it takes awhile or when it's a little too late in the game. It's always best to ask a person or question what the meaning is behind their own words, and it's something to explore for a moment. Sincerely Putting a submissive in their place, could in fact be the result of insecurity and a red flag sign for situation to avoid. Not everybody is bad, and there are a lot of negatives that are abundant. I question how difficult it is or is not, being involved in this stuff and still living a positive life. There are elements that keep popping up time and time again. I just know that personally for me at this stage in the game called life, I've become more active in positive directions. If there are things in your life, you are not happy with... things you need to change, do it. Find things that you love and enjoy to do. Get involved with positive people and doing positive things in life. So much engery is devoted upon focusing upon the negatives and bad things, that the positive almost ceases to exist. Dreams simply become dreams to have while you sleep.

laurell3 -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/4/2010 8:32:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4 I question how difficult it is or is not, being involved in this stuff and still living a positive life. There are elements that keep popping up time and time again. I just know that personally for me at this stage in the game called life, I've become more active in positive directions. If there are things in your life, you are not happy with... things you need to change, do it. Find things that you love and enjoy to do. Get involved with positive people and doing positive things in life. So much engery is devoted upon focusing upon the negatives and bad things, that the positive almost ceases to exist. Dreams simply become dreams to have while you sleep. I also came to that conclusion about a decade ago and walked away for awhile. I found that negatives exist in all walks of life and my problem wasn't the lifestyle, it was my choices and responses. So I came back, because I certainly couldn't change myself to the extent of not desiring it. I could change myself to the extent of not letting it be so much of a focus and having more realistic expectations of partners and being less accepting of prospective partners with intimacy issues. It really doesn't have to be all that complicated. It certainly doesn't have to be negative. I think sometimes we have to bang our heads against the proverbial wall a few times to understand that though.

ranja -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/4/2010 11:47:08 AM)
~FR~ Oh dear, there are times that i can hardly stand myself... pmt... bad weather forecast... too much coffee... anyhow if my Husband helpfully lets me know in no uncertain terms that i should mind my mouth and perhaps busy myself with more constructive things than bugging Him with my moaning about trivia... oh it can feel like such a relief usually i am no bother though....

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/4/2010 1:42:07 PM)
quote: So the question/s are these, What does it mean to you when you either hear/see that phrase or use that phrase. To me, it means that the individual making that statement has some pretty solid ideas about how xhe expects someone who submits to hir to behave (on the dominant side)... or that xhe has particular ideas about how xhe wants to interact with the person xhe submits -to- (on the submissive side). However, part of the thrill for some dominant individuals comes from the constant -reminding- of the submissive-- it is actually a form of 'humiliation' activity where the dominant party makes comments or forces actions that push the submissive to reveal hir submission repetitively, either to the dominant party or in public. It does nothing for me, but apparently some people really get off on that aspect and seek out ways to constantly reinforce in the submissive that xhe has given up control. quote: What is a submissive's place and how does one put/keep him/her in it? For me, a submissive's "place" is whatever role/responsibilities suits hir talents, skills, and hir agreed-upon interaction within our household. I don't tend to have submissive individuals in service to me who have to be -forced- into keeping to the aspect that they chose, therefore, there are usually very few outward signs of me "controlling" my servants -- the choreography of our 'dance of leadership and submission' is done behind the scenes, and to the casual observer, there is rarely anything that would define us as being particularly 'submissive' or 'dominant' per se. quote: Is that something you look for in a D/s or M/s relatiionship and how does that manifest to you. As I've mentioned several times before, both in this post and in other related posts, I tend to gather-in submissive individuals who are yielding by nature. I tend to prefer not to have to push, cajole, force, wheedle, bribe, or humiliate my servants into yielding to me, and I tend to believe that they will either yield on their own, or they will not, as a natural part of their own progress and development... and the ways in which we interact will flow out of that natural expression of yielding -- or out of that servant's decision to re-claim that which xhe had yielded in the past. quote: In addition, are you looking to conquer or be conquered and how does that manifest? While I have yielded in the past, for specific cause, I have -never- been conquered. In the same way, while I seek out those who choose to yield as a way of being, I do not choose to "conquer" them -- merely to allow both of us to live our our natural tendencies in a way that is productive and challenges us. Calla

Twoshoes -> RE: "A Submissive's Place" (8/4/2010 1:51:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub quote: ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4 NOTE TO SELF = true submissives never need to be put back in their place (LOL) La La La La... for the record, some women love it when somebody put them back in their place, instead of letting them walk over them. (seriously, this is shit that vanilla none lifestyle women fucking talk about). I can't believe some people ain't keen on this concept. This is the part that I don't get, what if she doesn't ty to walk all over the person they are in a relatiionship with? What if after she has made the decision to bow the knee and submit to an individual, she actually obeys? Is there a type that needs as my friend indicated to conquer and apparently continue to conquer? Does that feed something? This is not about "true submission or anything else. Thanks for your reply, heartfelt Yes, it feeds the ego. THE EGO IS HUNGRY. Theres nothing wrong with being naturally completely submissive. However, yes, there are some men who like to conquer and some women who like to be conquered. At least, every once in a while. It's not a one-sided thing either, there's plenty of women who state they might walk all over you or test you. The satisfaction for the man comes from the fact that he's strong enough to handle a woman who is strong, interesting, confident and has a certain amount of power (social, financial, sexual or other). I'm guessing the women are happy to have someone who they feel they can't have their way with or boss around easily and they can be at peace and feel secure with. "I got a real MAN!" So it feeds her ego too. Maybe it'll help you relate, if you think of the way some Dommes prefer really powerful men. Personally, I do like the feisty ones. It must be a reflection of the personalities of my own female role models while growing up. It isn't that difficult and it doesn't have to be abusive or even physical to put someone "in their place". "So what was so important earlier that you decided not to listen to me? This better be good..." An apology, a little spanking (if they try to lie their way out of trouble) or subspace usually reconnects both people. It doesn't even have to be particularly unpleasant at all. But it can be, otherwise they'll just end up manipulating you for when they want attention. Pretty much goes: Negative behaviour -> Ignore. Apology or Positive behaviour -> Positive response. I don't think negative responses (funishments not included) or awarding bad behaviour with attention will do much good. You don't have to be abusive at all (like some of you are worried about in this thread). You just have to be willing to wait patiently until that naughty girl comes to you wanting attention/affection/sex and then smile wide and proceed to remind her who is in charge. Teasing/attitude: It's not particularly smart to be teasing someone or giving them attitude when you've also given them the power to to make you uncomfortable for their own entertainment. Some like to be reminded of this more often :P. I think, this is all part of a specific dynamic and it's meant to be bring satisfaction. "Let's see how much I can get away with" is fine with me. However, you gotta know which rules can be toyed with. it's pretty clear that being rude/disrespectful is not on the same level as purposefully burning down a house. I realize that for some of you being ignored is really hurtful, but I was referring to women with strong personalities/egos in this post. And they definately have to be willing to be submissive.

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