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RE: Religion - 8/3/2010 1:13:24 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

So, two questions:

1. Is the universe then meaningless?

2. Are there any religions without deities, and if so, and by your definition they are not religions ... what are they?

Firm

The first is quite possible.

It's possible that the universe is meaningless?

I think this is a binary question (not trying to force one, but other than "I don't know", I see no other alternative, do you?).

Thanks for your response, Jeff, but I'd still like to here willbeurdaddy's response as well.

Firm

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RE: Religion - 8/3/2010 1:25:05 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Yeah I kinda feel Taoism is more a philosophy than a religion. That's why I left it out.

I think that there is a branch of Buddism that has no dieties.

Astrology would be another religion with no god.

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Post #: 22

RE: Religion - 8/3/2010 1:54:45 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I don't see how "meaning" can be attributed to the Universe without invoking some higher power that imbues it with that meaning. Meaning implies to me at least that there is some sentient being that established a purpose for its existence or the form of its existence.

The sentinent being who establishes meaning or purpose for existence is the human who evokes a Creator, not the Creator. Meaning is of foremost importance to humans. Religion is a method towards meaning. Doesn't really matter if the Creator has a purpose because humans do not know what it is. Humans evoke a Creator so as to deny meaninglessness. I think #2 is consistent with man's need for purpose. Lacking any evidence that the Creator is active in history, man is the only sentinent actor. I hope I am making sense.

Youre making sense, and we agree on the reality...that the sentient (not sentinent) actor is the human that imbues the universe with "meaning". We possibly do not agree in that imo that "meaning" is false. The universe is, period. It has no meaning or greater purpose. More important to Firm's question though, I read the definition more in the sense of seeking meaning that already exists, not a conscious attempt to give it meaning.

Ah, fuk. Too many "n"s. thanks for the correction.

I tend to agree "the universe is." I am not sure how but I am working it out and will let you know soon.

Nevertheless, it has meaning because man is driven to find meaning; he cannot stand the possibility that all this bullshit sturm and drang is for naught and he is left with existential nihilism. So, objectively false perhaps, but subjectively true. Even if your subjective truth is that there is no meaning you have made a judgment and derive a morality from it. The Universe will not be ignored. Existence cannot be ignored.

We disagree on reading Firm's "meaning" because as far as I know no-one has discerned the Creator's purpose other than what they themselves project upon the hovering ghost. Suppose there really were a Creator, he got bored one day, and made a Universe just for the fuk of it? That never seems to be an option in theological circles where they sit around and try to deduce WHY the Universe was created. Or maybe they don't even try.

The only way imo they can seek meaning that already exists without projecting their own wishes is to hear voices from above. Now, some will claim I am poking fun, but I am serious. I discount the "love" message of Jesus because that seems too simple for such an enormous and complex structure and because it wasn't really original. But hey! Just sayin.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 8/3/2010 2:07:59 PM >

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RE: Religion - 8/3/2010 2:00:05 PM

vincentML

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quote:

It's possible that the universe is meaningless?

I think this is a binary question (not trying to force one, but other than "I don't know", I see no other alternative, do you?).

Thanks for your response, Jeff, but I'd still like to here willbeurdaddy's response as well.

See my response to willbeur for a possible non binary answer.

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vML

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RE: Religion - 8/3/2010 3:17:32 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Yes...I disagree with your conclusion here.

2. ... in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe

So religion doesn't have to involve "god or gods".

I don't see how "meaning" can be attributed to the Universe without invoking some higher power that imbues it with that meaning. Meaning implies to me at least that there is some sentient being that established a purpose for its existence or the form of its existence.

So, two questions:

1. Is the universe then meaningless?

2. Are there any religions without deities, and if so, and by your definition they are not religions ... what are they?

Firm

IMO, yes the universe has no meaning. It exists, we inhabit it. I see "Religions without deities " as falling into two main categories (with overlap in some cases): codes of ethics/morals and philosophies.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

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Post #: 25