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"Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/18/2006 6:32:24 PM

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I have heard this phrase over and over, and recently in a couple of posts here on the forum.

What does it mean for a Master to set a slave/submissive up for failure?

I have some ideas, but what is running through my head, doesn't seem to jive with either common sense, common decency or ... what I think of in my own mind as 'Master'.

I look forward to understanding this better.

RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/18/2006 6:44:35 PM

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For me it is rather straight forward.... It is when a Task is given to the slave that the Master knows that it can't be achieved... for whatever reason. In other words.... Failure to succeed in the Task is assured!

I realize some believe that a hidden goal can exist behind the setup for failure.... But I am not one that likes or uses hidden agenda's or goals. I prefer my slaves to clear understanding what I want achieved and what I consider success to be! Success maybe not be assured... but neither is Failure!

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/18/2006 6:45:02 PM

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I haven't heard it much, but I have heard it. I would have to assume it is a case of unreasonable expectations.

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RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/18/2006 6:56:05 PM

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But... on some level, shouldn't the Master ... or perhaps even, isn't the Master entitled to want and expect everything from a slave? No matter the struggle, no matter the cost?

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RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/18/2006 7:07:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

But... on some level, shouldn't the Master ... or perhaps even, isn't the Master entitled to want and expect everything from a slave? No matter the struggle, no matter the cost?

You can not get blood out of stone!.. You can only reasonable expect a slave to do the absolute best in given moment.. Remembering ones best to this moment could be more or less in the next moment. have never seen an athelete perform at the very top of their ability each and every time... but the very best of them will do the very best they can in the Now. I expect nothing less and nothing more from my slaves.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to puella)

RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/18/2006 7:10:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

But... on some level, shouldn't the Master ... or perhaps even, isn't the Master entitled to want and expect everything from a slave? No matter the struggle, no matter the cost?

He's entitled to want his slave to be able not to ever get diseases or pregnant if that's what he wants- but if he makes her go have random sex all the time with other people, it's not going to happen. And he can't blame her for not obeying orders and getting sick/pregnant.

Any person who doesn't understand the basic concept of reality versus desire shouldn't be in a relationship with anyone, let alone as someone with authority.

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RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/18/2006 7:23:57 PM

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There's something beautiful about a struggle. I've always felt that an owner setting a slave up to fail is along the lines of enjoying the journey more than the arrival at the destination. To see someone try so hard for you, knowing that the chance of success is slim but still keeping at it, wanting so badly to please...

I'm told that it's a lot of fun to observe.

Not that it would always be appropriate. It can also be crushing for the slave to fail. When Sir expects perfection from me, that's what I strive for. When he sets me a near to impossibly difficult task, I know he's in the mood to see me squirm. It's a matter of timing and personality. For the right people, I see nothing wrong with engineering failure.

(in reply to puella)

RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/18/2006 7:30:00 PM

Fawne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

You can only reasonable expect a slave to do the absolute best in given moment.. Remembering ones best to this moment could be more or less in the next moment. have never seen an athelete perform at the very top of their ability each and every time... but the very best of them will do the very best they can in the Now. I expect nothing less and nothing more from my slaves.

Well said.
Thank you all.

< Message edited by Fawne -- 4/18/2006 7:50:53 PM >

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RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/18/2006 8:39:15 PM

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I take my submission seriously. I put my heart and soul and my energy and my emotions and all that I have into achieving the goals set for me. To set me up to fail at what is a core part of who and what I am would be breaking the trust I put in his hands.

You ask :
isn't the Master entitled to want and expect everything from a slave? No matter the struggle, no matter the cost?

For me, if the cost is loss of myself, then no he is not entitled to that. I will struggle to achieve the achievable. IMO, to give me a known unobtainable goal and make me tap dance til I drop is making a fool of me to fulfill a maniacal ego.
mbmbn

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RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/18/2006 9:56:01 PM

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Setting someone up for failure is not a D/s specialty lol it was pretty much my whole childhood.

Some people love to do everything they can to make others fail. Usually it's so they can berate or some how get self satisfaction in the ability to say "See i knew you couldn't do it, i told you that you are worthless and now this shows that I was right"

By the way, being able to suceed against the odds drives these people nuts. *smiles* and really gives one a sense of being able to say ya well !@#* You!! to the person.

i think spending years fighting to suceed just to prove my step father wrong, gave me the ability as an adult to not give a damn what others think. There are a select few i want to please and other then that i just couldn't care less. If you know who you are and your self worth then it's hard for others to bring you down.

In the D/s sense though, this type of activity can be extremely mentally detrimental for the submissive or slave. For the victim is usualy someone with a desperate need to please her Dom and is utterly crushed when they can't succeed. Deep feelings if
inadequacy is usually followed by deep depression and can lead to self punishment, (cutting, etc) and to a final end of suicide. If you are made to feel like less then nothing then why would you want to exist?

People that try and set others up for failure do so for they feel inadaquate in themselves. The only way they can feel good is to consistantly prove to themselves that they are smarter, better, bigger, stronger. Anyone with a healthy sense of self would never subject anyone, especially someone they are supposed to care about to such treatment.

An unfortunate reality is that some men and women say they are dominants so that they can be in a position of authority and control over another. Usually someone very new and un-educated in such things. This is not a D/s relationship, this is just plain and simple abuse trying to hide under a wrapper.

A sad realization as to why so many people not involved in this lifestyle have such a negative view of us. For it's the pretenders and freaks that get the headlines. Not those of us in helathy, happy, fullfilling relatioships that happen to cater to our umm... more primal and select wants and needs *grins*

*giggles* i'll get down off the soap box now.

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RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/18/2006 10:20:47 PM

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quote:

What does it mean for a Master to set a slave/submissive up for failure?

I have some ideas, but what is running through my head, doesn't seem to jive with either common sense, common decency or ... what I think of in my own mind as 'Master'.

I look forward to understanding this better.

Something which hasn't been mentioned and is actually related to another thread is setting up a slave to fail as an 'excuse' to punish them. It's not part of the dynamic which I share with Himself, but it's pretty common. It's done for fun and some get a kick out of it, so more power to them for engaging in lives which bring them happiness.

Celeste

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to puella)

RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/19/2006 12:01:22 AM

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I do undertand the concept and psychology in setting some one up for failure. I have used it on more tnan one occasion in order to bring some one or a company or other body crashing to destruction.... It is a tool of my previous occupation. However, to set some oe who is subordinate in or out of the life style, un or out of a collar would be as I have commented in another forum, an unforgivable abuse of power and is dishonourable and cowardly...

There is a fine line between setting someone up to fail and setting a target higher than they believ thay can reach and you you know nd believe it is within their capabilities. That is just stretching their limitations and self belief.... Damn nearly every combat vet I know has been down that path and survived to be better soldiers,

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RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/19/2006 12:54:32 AM

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Like IB (Now there is a surprize, like we ever have anything in common

) I've used the tactic in business, where I've lead a competator to believe their only course of action was something I knew full well was doomed to failiour and would result in me having one less competator in the local market.

Not something I indulge in inside a relationship though. When I set a goal then it is something I believe can be achieved and where it is not managed then so long as she has tried as hard as she possibly can then I am not as disapointed as I would be if I thought it was simply because of lack of effort.

Yes I know some use it to give them an excuse to "Punish", not my style. If I want to drag her across my knee, or have her present herself for my belt or some other tool for my enjoyment then why the hell pretend it is for any other reason. If it works for them great but I would think it would risk the girl not knowing wether any particular task that is set was one she was 'supposed' to fail at or one she had to find some way to compleat, an uncertanty no girl of mine needs to face.

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RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/19/2006 2:01:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

I have heard this phrase over and over, and recently in a couple of posts here on the forum.

What does it mean for a Master to set a slave/submissive up for failure?

I have some ideas, but what is running through my head, doesn't seem to jive with either common sense, common decency or ... what I think of in my own mind as 'Master'.

I look forward to understanding this better.

There is another reason a Master may set his slave up for failure that I've yet seen posted...

Humiliation, either because the slave enjoys that...or, in the case of someone I know personally, as a way of teaching her that she was not behaving with expected decorum. (she pushed another slave down, so that she could greet him first.)

(in reply to puella)

RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/19/2006 3:18:19 AM

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Do you suppose you can set someone up for failure without that actual intention in mind... I mean, is it setting one up for failure if the Master really really wants the slave to succeed? There are times we want things so badly or think we are entitled to things, or even think we see things others 'seem' to have and can find a myriad of reasons to justify why we should have them or can have them... do you think that still is setting a slave up for failure... if everyone else can so plainly see what is coming but those two involved, the Master because he so wants it and the slave because she so wants to give it to him?

(in reply to feastie)

RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/19/2006 3:33:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Do you suppose you can set someone up for failure without that actual intention in mind... I mean, is it setting one up for failure if the Master really really wants the slave to succeed? There are times we want things so badly or think we are entitled to things, or even think we see things others 'seem' to have and can find a myriad of reasons to justify why we should have them or can have them... do you think that still is setting a slave up for failure... if everyone else can so plainly see what is coming but those two involved, the Master because he so wants it and the slave because she so wants to give it to him?

No I don't see that as being the same thing in the least as there is no "Set up", no design for them to fail. Yes sometimes it happens, you can think the girl is just that little bit more ready than the truth of the matter because both of you want and hope that she can manage something. That is where the Dom especialy must be realistic and not let disapointment at not getting what he wants right then and there become disapointment in the girl. If she has given her all and it was not sufficient then it should still be enough for her to be given praise and reasurance.... Maybe next time she will manage it, no-one can give more than 100%

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to puella)

RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/19/2006 3:36:47 AM

Areflectionofyou

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Regardless of the relationship, whether it be Master/slave or Dom/ sub , setting a slave/sub up to fail is emotionally challenging and quite possibly abusive of the power a Dominant was given. The Master /slave relationship is almost like a Parent /child relationship. You train/raise to reap the rewards of a stable person. How can one feel stable in a situation is one feels their owner purposely watches them fail at a unwinnable task?

(in reply to puella)

RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/19/2006 6:35:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella
do you think that still is setting a slave up for failure... if everyone else can so plainly see what is coming but those two involved, the Master because he so wants it and the slave because she so wants to give it to him?

Happens all the time, specially in the poly dynamic.

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RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/19/2006 6:54:02 AM

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I can see instances (like in a humiliation context mentioned by feastie, for example) where it might be construed as "failure" by outsiders looking in, or maybe even by either partner (if communication wasn't all that great between the two, for whatever reason )....but that may be useful as far as teaching something a partner wants the other to learn. I can see that a slave, or even a submissive might not fully realize the desired end result of the Master or Dom at the time.

I think the basic issue here may well be how much trust is being perceived as having to be (or has been) earned by either person. If one has felt ''let down" by another I'd hope they'd discuss it if they did feel that had happened.

Outside of instances that teach something - with a constructive end result intended (if not always known by the submissive or slave), I'd have to question why anyone would want their slave to fail *(but am aware that people exist who simply do not have another's best interests at heart or are not "on the same page" . Maybe those people have discovered this via communication or lack of it, too).

I see no no shame in being very willing yet still maybe having one's heart broken. Trust can erode slowly over time as much as it can be built, or re-built though, I think. Hopefully, there's a flow of it going on between two (or more) people. Sometimes, yes - there actually is a "point of no return" (but even in that case, it's been construed that way by one or both people all the same). In that case, I imagine it can sometimes be difficult to trust again.

I sees overall goal in D/s as enhancement of the other. Discovering and wanting to draw out and enhance their enjoyment of their power (of a Master or Dom) and enable what is construed as beautiful by them in a submissive or slave to be enhanced by them too - as far as their own desires and the submissive's or slave's good qualities. How could anyone do that if they "want their slave to fail"?

If someone really wants to please someone else, from the bottom of their heart, how could they make them fail? If they were understanding and you gave your very best?

I don't think they could.
Maybe simply else has been disappointed someone or not lived up to standards they've set (or maybe their own) for whatever reason. Maybe next time will be easier or the person(s) in question will do things differently to become "better" at some activity or the way they approach it. Maybe eventually two people have a 'parting of the ways' if they cannot work things out so that the Dom or Master is pleased. But in any of those cases - If you give or gave your very best you are not a failure. - SusanofO

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/19/2006 7:48:13 AM >

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RE: "Setting the slave up for failure" - 4/19/2006 7:05:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Do you suppose you can set someone up for failure without that actual intention in mind... I mean, is it setting one up for failure if the Master really really wants the slave to succeed? There are times we want things so badly or think we are entitled to things, or even think we see things others 'seem' to have and can find a myriad of reasons to justify why we should have them or can have them... do you think that still is setting a slave up for failure... if everyone else can so plainly see what is coming but those two involved, the Master because he so wants it and the slave because she so wants to give it to him?

Intention and Knowledge of assured Failure is the significiant difference. I think we as individuals can cause ourselves and others to failure.... not with intent or knowledge to do it... But we do it because of unrealistic expectations! Having unrealistic expectations that bring failure is to me distinctly different than having the intent and knowledge that certain actions will be a Failure!

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to puella)

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