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RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/6/2010 3:06:40 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		and yet its a term that originates from BDSM play and has no negative connotations at all - in its original format.

the fact that it is taken negatively in Ds and Ms is fully appreciated.  still doesnt alter the fact that most of us are far from perfect all day long and some of us are capable of attempting to top the Dominants position sometimes. 

i  have no problem admitting ive got it wrong on plenty of occasions and im sure i will again and every single time i did i was still the submissive in the room and i always will be.

questioning and challenging the authority of the Dominant happens.  some call that TFTB.  for all i know that is what brought about the OP.  if it was said in a derrogatory manner then thats up to them.  but whatever you call it, it happens.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/6/2010 5:04:26 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I "absolutely" agree except... You've never seen anyone do something bad because THEY chose to?


Yes. But I don't want compliance. I want obedience and not because I said so but because he understands my way is preferred, better, what have you.

quote:

Finding a solution and working out why something happen is the grownup thing to do but not doing them is even better..Crap does happen though and life isn't that neat.


I agree but perfection is an ideal not a reality. Mistakes will occur. When the behavior falls outside of what's expected I must determine why his desire was more important than adhering to the directive/standard. The answer isn't always clear cut and it may require reorientation or articulation of my expectations. Chalking it up to TFTB fails to address the root and allow for the impression that I want.

Obedience is a choice and I want him to understand that he's following my instructions because it is what we both want, even when other options present themselves that may be more appealing to him. As such, my way is the only way when it's all said and done.

~porcelaine


Of course they don't mean the same. I'm along with my way is preferred..I do try to make sure it is the "best" way but that's not always the case. She'll still have to follow.

Labeling something doesn't do anything but that..Stating it's TFTB doesn't mean you dismiss it and walk away as if it's all done now. Not that I use the term(I prefer brat or bratty behavior..well for a term that is..I don't actually prefer either of them)

It's only a starting point much like any label is. It's all been discussed to death.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/6/2010 5:17:44 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
I think the real problem for you is that you believe that you are fully in control. The fact that Carol would attempt to be a bad girl in the first place means you aren't.
No, the fact that she would SUCCEED at doing so means I'm not *laughs*. So yeah, when you said later "attempted TFTB" I could certainly recognize that sort of behavior in her. But because it presents no challenge to me I don't really label it that way. It's just "communication".

quote:

I look inward and outwardly..It's not a placing of blame but holding her accountable for her action in it. Which is where we sit down for a talk.

*nods* Honestly, as would Carol and I... although between us that would all be automatic. I'm sure we'd both go seek each other out somewhat sheepishly and make some apologies and discuss how it went. As I noted above, neither Carol nor myself would be very pleased with our own behavior in that sort of scenario.

I suppose if I had a dynamic where no feedback was allowed and I expected instant obedience to every utterance that came from my lips then it'd be different. But then again, so would Carol's behavior. In that [theoretical] relationship, she would know that when I said anything her choices were instant-obedience or turning in the collar. She'd act accordingly. But for Carol and I, I very much like to get reactions to my commands and I'm fine with those reactions sometimes moderating my initial commands. If I want instant and unconditional obedience, I start out with "Listen and obey me mine....." So there may be a style thing going on in all this too. It could simply be that my particular style happens to preclude this particular scenario.

I think you missed my point but I agree with what you've said.
My point was that we're not machines..She's not a machine that can be controlled outside of her own free will unless her mind is receptive to it but even then it's fluid..Yes we can retain control of ourselves and we can attempt to extend that control to situations and others but if the situation involves people..They will of course have to accept it. I'm adding this: I mean in general and on constant basis..each time something is said she will have a decision to make. In time it becomes an auto-pilot thing if everything is working out but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that every single little thing we do every second of the day takes some sort of forethought. If you don't believe me..Consciously make yourself aware of every step and action you take to get out of bed to take a piss in the morning.

At best control is fluid over people.

I don't think we're too far off from each other in regards to dynamics...

I am open to talking with my female just as much as you might be..I believe that any relationship that's expected to survive for any length of time needs "open communication" except to say...There's a place, a time and a way of communicating that I respond to. If she can fall in line with that, both of us are more apt to be happy.

As a matter of fact I try to foster talking right off the bat..When I feel a desire for someone and want to know them on a deeper level..I'll begin with a 20 questions game..They get to ask me anything they want and no matter how hard it is for me to answer I will..but it doesn't stop there...If I want to know you...I really want to know you....I will pull walls down like 10lbs of plastique.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 8/6/2010 5:30:36 PM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/6/2010 7:30:29 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

It's only a starting point much like any label is. It's all been discussed to death.



I don't know if it's been discussed to death. But I do believe the OP has a lot of insightful perspectives to draw from which is always good.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/6/2010 8:05:32 PM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		For Me, something Lance (I think it was) said way back on page 2 (or so!) resonated. I think for it to be a case of TFTB OTHER than in the pure sensation sense of the phrase, there has to be some measure of deceit or deliberateness (is that a word?) involved. It's a deliberate attempt by a sub to undermine the authority of their Dominant and get their own way. I don't think it's a Dominant's "fault" if it occurs ... but it becomes their "problem" if it continues to occur and they don't effectively deal with it and it's not how they want their D/s relationship to operate. As has been said, some D's thrive on fiesty bratty subs that they have to force into submission. Frankly, I don't want to expend that much energy! I want obedience ... and as a sub to Master, i try to be obedient (though i am perhaps a bit too ready to "suggest" my alternative ways at times!). Master seems to have developed a fine art of knowing when i'm genuinely trying to be helpful ... and when i'm bordering on manipulative ... and He comes down hard on the latter! That works for both of us.

Getting back to pattay, also on p.2 ... I would say that your actions of inappropriately touching your Sir were not so much TFTB as making an assumption because the rules had not yet been clearly defined. In other words, it was more your Sir's problem than yours, and He dealt with it appropriately, realising He had been in error by not telling you that before, by giving you a hug and saying it wasn't that big a deal. Obviously He can't give you every rule at once either, or you would be totally overwhelmed. So look at it this way ... if you inadvertently do something wrong because you didn't know about it (or had no reason to assume it would be wrong) ... then it shouldn't be a big deal or penalised because you can't deliberately break a rule you don't know exists. However, if you HAVE been told a rule or shown how to do something and then you deliberately break that rule, or decide to do it your own way anyway (and especially if inside you think "He's not watching so He won't know how i really did it, so i'll do it the way i want) ... then THAT to Me is TFTB and not acceptable. Does that help?

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/7/2010 3:26:57 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

Yes. But I don't want compliance. I want obedience and not because I said so but because he understands my way is preferred, better, what have you.

~porcelaine



sometimes i am just totally baffled... there was me thinking you thought you were a slave... have you recently switched or am i losing it?

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/7/2010 8:24:12 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

It's only a starting point much like any label is. It's all been discussed to death.



I don't know if it's been discussed to death. But I do believe the OP has a lot of insightful perspectives to draw from which is always good.

~porcelaine


I meant labeling has been.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/7/2010 8:28:50 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

She's not a machine that can be controlled outside of her own free will unless her mind is receptive to it but even then it's fluid


Hopefully people understood what I meant by this..I reread it and it might have been read in a slightly different way

What I meant was: She's not a machine that can be controlled outside of her own free will. Unless her mind is receptive to it (Control)but even then it's fluid.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/7/2010 8:32:34 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

sometimes i am just totally baffled... there was me thinking you thought you were a slave... have you recently switched or am i losing it?


I don't know if switching is the appropriate term since this is where I began. But yes, my time on the kneel is over. You're not losing it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I meant labeling has been.



Ditto. Maybe we can form the anti-label coalition.

~porcelaine



_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/7/2010 9:34:43 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

Ditto. Maybe we can form the anti-label coalition.

~porcelaine

Well we'd be at opposing coalitions then. I don't have a problem with them. Until they're used to put someone down of someone's trying to squirm out of one..Why? Cause it's just a freaking word..The people who are trying to shuck them and or use them in negative ways are the ones who are putting much more emphasis on them than what they are. Labels are there for a reason..."Fight" if you want to over them and or against them..They most likely aren't going anywhere.

Label rant over and out.

Exit, stage left.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 8/7/2010 9:35:40 AM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/7/2010 10:05:01 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

sometimes i am just totally baffled... there was me thinking you thought you were a slave... have you recently switched or am i losing it?


I don't know if switching is the appropriate term since this is where I began. But yes, my time on the kneel is over. You're not losing it.





Thanks for clarifying... more like a full circle then it sounds like...
does the bird on the picture represent your submission?

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/7/2010 10:27:37 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

Thanks for clarifying... more like a full circle then it sounds like...
does the bird on the picture represent your submission?


You're welcome. Indeed it is. As for the bird, it isn't representative of anything save an accoutrement on the individual. I didn't transform, I'm merely showcasing my default orientation and mindset without the alterations that slavery impressed.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/7/2010 10:30:46 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
I didn't transform, I'm merely showcasing my default orientation and mindset without the alterations that slavery impressed.
*chuckles* In other words, people are complicated?

So does this mean you're still in my harem because damn girl, those napa grapes are not cheap?
*peels you a ripe, succulent, fleshy looking grape*

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/7/2010 10:35:40 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

*chuckles* In other words, people are complicated?

So does this mean you're still in my harem because damn girl, those napa grapes are not cheap?
*peels you a ripe, succulent, fleshy looking grape*


My complexity is in my simplicity. *grins* And you know I prefer Bordeaux.

Girl? Didn't you read that "other" thread?

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/7/2010 10:38:57 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
Girl? Didn't you read that "other" thread?

*casts eyes downward*
I'm sorry Goddess.

Insofar as the bordeaux grapes, do you have any idea how many international trade and health laws I'd be breaking to order those in? During the hot summer months though I could always order the wine, get little grape shaped molds and make little frozen bordeaux grapes for you.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/7/2010 10:50:42 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Insofar as the bordeaux grapes, do you have any idea how many international trade and health laws I'd be breaking to order those in? During the hot summer months though I could always order the wine, get little grape shaped molds and make little frozen bordeaux grapes for you.


It would be irresponsible of me to endanger your freedom. The wine will suffice. Make it Chateau Lafite please.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/9/2010 11:13:19 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:


It would be irresponsible of me to endanger your freedom. The wine will suffice. Make it Chateau Lafite please.

~porcelaine



Oooo.... we're decanting the '00 for my birthday this year! I bought a 375 ml from the turning of the millenium.

Calla



< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/9/2010 11:17:00 AM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/10/2010 5:44:30 AM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pattayonacracker
To hear Him say that i did something wrong, hurts, is it always like this for everyone when you make a mistake?


Yes. :( At least for me it is. It feels...mortifying. That's why chastisement is good for some submissives: we learn from it, because we _really_ don't want to feel that way again! In a new relationship, you can't know all of your dominant's rules and boundaries for you, all the hundreds of details can't be talked out, anticipated ahead of the time in which they happen. So in the beginning, these mistakes happen. The worst mistake you could make is to take it all to heart too seriously, I mean, to think it means you're a bad slave. Your dominant is not doing any of this, he's just communicating his preferences and desires for you. Just take the behavior change seriously, and try not to attach any significant meaning to it beyond, "my master doesn't like unsolicited sexual touch." If it were me who did this, I would want to know a little more, if it were not clear. I'd ask him later, when we were both relaxed, whether the no-touch-there rule applies in all circumstances or just in situations where he's going to work.

Some dominants do not like any spontaneous active behavior that is not dictated by them. Some don't like this at first, but allow it once they know you better. Others enjoy it immensely and encourage it in their submissives. One type is not more dominant than the other. These are just differences in style, and you are learning your master's style, which is normal and good. :)

Anyway, yes it hurts to have this happen, but this is a typical experience in a new power-exchange relationship, so it will probably happen more times. It doesn't mean you are a bad submissive, just that you don't know this dominant very well yet and are learning, adjusting to your role and learning what behavior he wants from you. Since you didn't intend manipulation, I wouldn't call this act "topping from the bottom," but your master may have a different definition for this term. Maybe for him it includes spotaneous agressive sexual acts. It's kind of a cool rule, in my opinion. You're reminded of what you are very well by the fact that he can touch you whenever and however he wants but you are not allowed to freely (without permission) touch him in that manner.

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to pattayonacracker)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/10/2010 10:19:08 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Oooo.... we're decanting the '00 for my birthday this year! I bought a 375 ml from the turning of the millenium.



Ooh Dame Calla you have impeccable taste! I hope your birthday is a joyous one.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/10/2010 10:20:55 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

sometimes i am just totally baffled... there was me thinking you thought you were a slave... have you recently switched or am i losing it?


I don't know if switching is the appropriate term since this is where I began. But yes, my time on the kneel is over. You're not losing it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I meant labeling has been.



Ditto. Maybe we can form the anti-label coalition.

~porcelaine




There is one of those?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 100
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