RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (Full Version)

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penguirl -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/17/2010 8:33:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

No, it would not be an issue for things other than sexual organs. Again, let's remember that in a 2 sex species, sex is going to be an issue which gets deep down into the lizard-brain part.


But that is a fallacy. Gender is not a binary, and in mother nature's reality neither is sex. What about all the people born intersexed? Is a person with one ovary and one testicle male or female? Does an enlarged clitoris count as a penis? If the family and doctor decided that an intersexed infant should be a boy and performed 'corrective' surgery but then the child grew up to develop breasts and have a feminine brain, is that child still a boy?

It is not as simple as human beings want it to be. There is variation across the spectrum, a million shades of gray that we will never be able to sort into just two categories and the sooner we accept that the better off society will be.



behavingbadly -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/17/2010 8:35:47 PM)

it's all biological all of it. but there are fakes like fake bisexual girls who aren't really attracted to women. this is when the problems begin when they label themselves as bi because they find girls attractive there's a difference if they don't find them sexually and mentally attractive their straight girls who think life would be easier if they were bi.



SthrnCom4t -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/17/2010 8:36:04 PM)

And so, I write 3000 word profiles. When I was single, if I met someone who wasn't in the kink community (after a brief stint fishing in the vanilla pond and have the 'uncomfortable' discussion regarding my preferences), I'd just point them to my online profile. If they weren't computer savvy enough to find it; we weren't compatible. If they didn't understand it, and didn't have enough interest to go looking up terms they weren't familiar with; we weren't compatible. If they did get to the next level, we had a lot to talk about.

Fishing in a 'known' pond, or inviting said person to 'my pond' was the way I handled a similar situation. I would think this option could work well for transfolk.....kinky or not kinky.



xkittenx -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/18/2010 12:57:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

I don't take your comment as a passive-aggressive defense. Why would I make the accusation...as stated, reading her post I got the impression that she was not being truthful. I'm not sure to what degree, but I'm about as sure as one can be about these things on the internet. I usually don't point it out when I smell bullshit of the more emotional variety. Mostly because people lie for attention, and the more emotional the lie, the more likely credulous folks will step up to defend the liar and call me names. Now, I made my comment with the full awareness that some (many? I don't care) people will think I'm a horrible person for doing so. I can live with that. And I'm fully capable of, if not particularly interested in, offering a breakdown of why I concluded that she was being less than truthful. So it's not like I don't normally bring it up because I'm afraid to explain myself. I normally don't bring it up because all it does is give the liar more of what she wants -- sympathetic attention.

The reason I was willing to bring it up here is because the context really bothered me. Not as an example of a cis person who had an understandable emotional response to disclosure, I didn't read her comment as "and this is why you're a horrible person if you don't immediately disclose" or advocating any larger point outside of her own story. And I'm not sure I can explain why it really bothered me in a way that others wouldn't consider needlessly cruel. I'll just leave it at -- manipulative.  I've made my point to her. If she's lying, she knows what I'm talking about, I'm not going to give her tips to improve her performance by explaining the red flags. And if I'm wrong and the whole story is true from top to bottom, well, that really would be just extra cruel, wouldn't it? "You had this awful experience, allow me to explain in detail why you come across as an unreliable narrator." I wouldn't have posted my comment if I didn't think she was, as I said, at least embellishing. But it's not like I think I'm infallible. If I'm wrong, no need to cause additional injury.

As for her posting history, I'm pretty bad at remembering posters. I vaguely remember a xxkittenxx or something like that, but nothing about that person. The geographical/age detail rang a teeny tiny bell, but still... no, sorry. I don't remember her.

I'm sorry if the lack of detail leaves you unsatisfied, but I hope I've at least done an adequate job of explaining why I don't want to offer more.



I respect your point of view, though I don't think it was necessary to post it on the forum. You could have just sent me an email.

I had no intention of being manipulative and I'm truly sorry if I came across that way. If that is what you took away from my post, I obviously didn't do a very good job of communicating my point. I didn't have a moral in mind. I was replying to Bambi's original post where she asked if genitalia made a difference or not. To me, at that point in my life, genitalia made a huge difference.

The fact that I had been misled was hurtful because I trusted her with my secrets so why didn't she feel she could trust me with hers? I don't think that anyone is a bad person if they choose not to immediately disclose personal information. I didn't break up with my ex because she lied to me. I was hurt because she lied to me but I could have gotten over being hurt. I broke up with her because she had a penis.

And finally, I wanted to clarify regarding my posting history. I have been reading the forums as a guest off and on for several months now. I didn't register until last night so I can't really blame anyone for not trusting the things I say. I don't have any credibility yet.



thishereboi -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/18/2010 5:23:45 AM)

There is a big difference between a transgendered person and a drag queen in a female impersonation show. The first one was born with the wrong parts and is trying to correct that mistake. The second one is doing it to entertain the audience.



thishereboi -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/18/2010 5:37:00 AM)

quote:

Does an enlarged clitoris count as a penis?


I had a roommate who was ftm, we told him it counted but we may have been wrong. I have to say it was the biggest clit I had ever seen. According to him, it was from the T shots.



Andalusite -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/18/2010 8:37:52 AM)

I haven't seen anyone else post with a similar perspective to mine yet. I'm bisexual, leaning heavily toward men. I've played with one FTM who had transitioned as much as he wanted to (testosterone, mastectomy, but kept the original equipment elsewhere as surgery really isn't advanced enough to work well), and his energy and look were very masculine to me. I also played with a MTF who was just at the beginning of her transition (starting hormones, got surgery several months later) who had a lot of self-esteem issues with her body. She showed up on my "radar" so to speak as male, and I reacted to her hormonally/etc. that way a lot, even though I had no objection to using the pronouns she preferred and respected her self-identity. It would not have been fair to her to date her rather than playing casually, since I was attracted to the masculine side which she so desperately wanted to get rid of. On a gut level, I had trouble reacting to her as female, and she needed and deserved a partner who did. I didn't engage with either of them sexually, just as casual play, but I still would have felt a little weird if they hadn't explained. A couple of people asked about sharing health history. Yes, I do so with anyone I play with casually or in relationships, for anything that could remotely have anything to do with play, and I want them to be open with me as well. Not knowing that someone has diabetes or bipolar disorder or some such could be a real issue, even though I would probably still be open to playing with them. Flat out lying, like the person who did that to QSM, would make me doubt their truthfulness in everything else as well. It would be like making up stories about their ex-wife when they had never been married, or sharing stories about their previous job in a certain field when they'd never worked doing that.

As to asking, nobody who is single is likely to object to someone asking if they're married/in a relationship/have a FWB or playpartner. I think a lot of bio men and bio women would get very offended if I asked them if they were transgendered, even if they didn't have a problem with transpeople or homosexuals as friends. If someone asked *me* that, I would probably assume it was a lead in to them asking for naked pictures or wanting to grope me when we hadn't developed that level of intimacy yet, since I have run into quite a few jerks who ask for "proof" that I'm really a woman.[:'(] I agree that it's important to me that I know what someone's relationship status is, and I do ask, but if they didn't tell me already right up front, I'll probably avoid dating them even if they fess up when asked. I don't want to date people who deliberately hide things that I express are important to me in my profile (don't have one up yet, but I mentioned it in my previous one, and plan to when I start looking again. I can't necessarily know all the right questions to dig out the truth from someone, and I don't want to conduct it as an interrogation scene. [;)] I'm very open and forthright about things that I think anyone I date needs to know about me, and I value that in potential partners. I see it as similar to limits and the discussion on aftercare expectations. As much as possible, we can negotiate things up front, but there will always be things that we couldn't have even dreamed would be an issue. In that case, honest and open communication and being a little flexible in the moment is important.



leadership527 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/18/2010 10:42:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: penguirl
But that is a fallacy. Gender is not a binary, and in mother nature's reality neither is sex.
*nods* I know that. But I also know that these conditions you describe are the anomalous conditions, not the expected ones. What I'm pointing out is that sexuality is central to our species so yes, people care about it a great deal and it troubles them when those unexpected results occur. In the end, us humans have never been very good about putting up with the star-belly'd humans.



jennylondon -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/18/2010 3:34:35 PM)

Have read thru all this, took a while lol  and just thought I'd make a few comments..

Mainly the concept of full disclosure of my past every time I meet someone for the first time..
It's not something I plan to do for many many reasons..

When I order coffee should I make it known to the person behind the counter that I used to be a man ?
It's not of any relevance to them.. It could put me at risk. etc etc etc.. I'm not going to do it.
A line has to be drawn somewhere I guess but unless I plan to have a sexual liason with someone or they
make it plain they wish to have sex with me. I certainly don't feel I have a duty to tell them about my past.

Should anyone feel betrayed and cheated by my non disclosure I  feel a bit dissapointed and move on.

The other thing is the " oh my god I went to bed with a women then found out he had a dick" phenomana

I sometimes wonder if that's as far as heterosexual males think about transgender issues.

I honestly don't expect or want to have sex with every other human I meet..

On a website like this I see no reason to hide anything, anything less than being completely open would be pointless
but in most other circumstances it's my business.... no one elses.

Whenever I see a forum discussing transgender stuff I can't help but look..

You lot are not as bad as many but I'm kinda left with the feeling that most of you don't think of people like me as  ....well people.








sexyred1 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/18/2010 3:42:08 PM)

Hi jennylondon, welcome to the boards.

I wanted to address a few things you have said.

1. I don't expect anyone to provide me or anyone else with "full disclosure" unless I am going to get involved with them.
2. I don't see anywhere on this thread where anyone has expressed that.
3. I don't believe that this website is different or better than any other website and therefore the behavior of people in general cannot be changed or expected to be different, just because it is a kink site.
4. I really take exception to your last line; I certainly do not see you or any other transgendered folk as less than people, in fact, I have a friend who I mentioned early on who is most certainly a great person. Just because I disagree with how she handles her business does not make her less of a person.

I think you are reading negativity into this topic where there is none, with the exception of one or two posters who responded negatively. Overall, I think people were respectful and it was an interesting topic.

I hope you find your time here to be fun and rewarding.



penguirl -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/18/2010 6:35:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
I also know that these conditions you describe are the anomalous conditions, not the expected ones. What I'm pointing out is that sexuality is central to our species so yes, people care about it a great deal and it troubles them when those unexpected results occur. In the end, us humans have never been very good about putting up with the star-belly'd humans.

Anomalous as in different than expected, yes. Anomalous as in different from normal, not so much. Yes we humans are slow to change but that is actually a liability to the species (I know, we is what we is).

You do get mega ultra bonus points for working Dr. Suess into the discussion!



MrBukani -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/18/2010 9:26:03 PM)

The word straight is discriminating cos what is the opposite of the word straight?
It's twisted...
In general hetero men have a fantasy of a trio but not with two men of course.
Those same men can be disgusted by the thought of homosexual men having sex.
Why? Cause they immidiatly think of anal sex.
Now say the word lesbian and say it again a bit more sensual, don't it sound great?
Like they are a certain exotic tribe from Lesbos.
Shemale sounds a bit like HeMan to me(remember the cartoon?) makes me think a little of an amazon.
Did you know shamans in eurasian ancient cultures were androgyn lookin men cos they believed a man with feminine looks would travel more easily between the spiritual and real world.
If a race calls themselves the chosen people they discriminate all others.
If I say I understand something it doesnt mean I respect it also.
I dont know if you catch my drift but I believe some things you should ponder over yourself.
This is the new world and I dont think I have to tell somebody on the first date I have had bisexual feelings when I will never act on them when we fall in love.
To say a man cant think like a woman and visa versa is a myth to keep the mystery alive.
When you dont want to solve a mystery, you are a dreamer.



Zevar -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/18/2010 10:05:47 PM)

quote:

The other thing is the " oh my god I went to bed with a women then found out he had a dick" phenomana

I sometimes wonder if that's as far as heterosexual males think about transgender issues.

Greetings jennyLondon:

In all fairness I thought I would address your above quoted words. As a heterosexual male when I relate with a woman I do expect to not experience her to have genitalia that I have. I am not saying that I am better than someone who is transsexual. No not at all! What I am saying is honesty is the best policy in all situations. Gender is not an exception! Obviously one does not disclose in a manner with the local person who is a stranger on the street. Discretion is most wise indeed.

Clearly when choosing to relate on a sexual level each individual involved needs to practice to the same standard of disclosing facts about themselves that would otherwise eventually need to be discussed as the relationship evolves. If this sort of standard is unilaterally altered then this only serves to invite threads of deception to overtake the otherwise potential development of trust.

Please do not read something into what I am presenting such as this position then makes you less of a person. That notion or any notion that would lead toward such internal dialogue is altogether false, period. Personhood or selfhood is not swayed or defined by way of gender identity. Instead I propose that the method of measurement is based on positive characteristics that all human beings are required to posses and demonstrate else therein is fertile ground for seeds of self deception to form.

I encourage you to only accept yourself for who you are and not what you perceive others might believe is right for you. I know that I choose to live my Life to the best of my ability and I am the run of the mill binary gender biological male who is exclusively heterosexual. Traditional at that too when it comes to courting a lady. How’s that for refuting stereotypical myths that you appear to struggle with about heterosexual males?

Take good care of you!



gungadin09 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/18/2010 10:37:45 PM)

gender: 12, on odd numbered days, unless it rains.

What?...you said there's no wrong answer.

pam



Elisabella -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/18/2010 11:21:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

gender: 12, on odd numbered days, unless it rains.

What?...you said there's no wrong answer.

pam


oh awesome I should introduce you to my friend eleven twelve.



switch2please -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/19/2010 7:27:33 AM)

A friend's partner says her gender is Gilligan - as in Gilligan's Island.
I really like that.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/19/2010 11:21:43 AM)

quote:

Did you know shamans in eurasian ancient cultures were androgyn lookin men cos they believed a man with feminine looks would travel more easily between the spiritual and real world.


I was sort of surprised the first time I took a course in gender orientation and early human cultures (25,000 BCE-~44 BCE) to learn that this is true of many Native American, Central American, and Amazonian tribes as well, and is also true of the spiritual leaders (shamanic/medicine people) of the Inuit and Aleuts. There is some evidence that individuals who had such natures, whether backed by physical hermaphroditic qualities or not, had special designations and special status as far back as the upper paleolithic [40,000 BCE-9,500BCE] (including being called the "two-souled" or "between-walkers"). They were often called upon not -only- to provide special blessings on the people, and to oversee fertility, but were sought out by both male and female members of the community to arbitrate familial disputes coming from "communication issues" between the genders, since it was believed that these people could comprehend both sides of the dispute with equanimity.

Calla



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