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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 4:46:23 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

The thing is that the left is mainly comprised of people with education, people who understand what's up. They are, in a sense, a bit more refined.


Just curious, would this be considered arrogant or condescending? I always get those two mixed up.



Back on topic:

I agree with tazzy when she says "The deregulation has been ongoing since Reagan. It will take at least that long to straighten it all out."

Might even take longer.


< Message edited by thishereboi -- 8/14/2010 4:52:56 AM >


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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 4:50:09 AM   
Jeffff


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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 5:40:10 AM   
SinJunky


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

It made me wonder... 1) did thinking this idealistic ever really exist? 2) if it did, what the hell happened to it????



In response...

1) Yes it did really exist.

2) Its still knocking around, but as politics has been hijacked by business interests its difficult to find in mainstream politics. You get flashes occassionally, I've even seen a bit of it from Obama, but it is quite rare.

One of the big problems is that we now have what are called "career politicians", essentially they have decided that their job is to be a politician and they can make a lot of money from it. They never really do anything in the real world and so have no skills other than sounding plausible, but because politics is their career they are not brave enough to think or speak idealistically. They do not really care about achieving anything, only getting re-elected so they can line their pockets for a bit longer.

I have to say Jefferson had his bad points, but he was one of the great political thinkers of all time. Jefferson and Lincoln are among the greatest, and it is well worth reading their speaches and other writing.

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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 6:37:34 AM   
Owner59


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Many of the FF were career politicians.

I don`t care if someone is a career politicians as long as they are acting in good faith, doing what they are supposed to and not doing what they aren`t supposed to.

We have built in term limits.Elections.

Yes idealism was a big part of the FF inspiration.But they made a document that withstands the ebbs and flows idealism and changing times.

Built in were mechanisms that adapt to time and circumstances while writing in stone what our inalienable rights are.

No system of government has lasted as long as ours.That`s a testament to the FF`s insight into humans and what makes us tick.

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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 6:46:06 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

The thing is that the left is mainly comprised of people with education, people who understand what's up.  They are, in a sense, a bit more refined.  The right has made an effort to appeal to the ignorant, uneducated masses through fear mongering.  All these people are terrified of socialism and they don't even know what it is.  But the left doesn't sit idle, I've been politically active ever since the last admin when there was such a strong call for activism.  However, I will continue to be politically active.  I want a better world for my grandkid.  I want better opportunities for my daughter.  I can't believe the shit I'm seeing in my research that took place during the last admin, all to do with deregulation.  Especially for the oil and gas industry and the toll it is taking on the environment.  It really threatens breathable air and potable water.  I'm not even talking about global warming.  


The left likes to portray themselves as "comprised of people with education, people who understand what's up" and the right as club fisted morons, who need to be told what to think, say, and do, but nothing could be further from the truth...

There's an old saying that goes, "Those that can, do, and those that can't, teach". You notice which group runs businesses, and built America, and which ones stay in academia. I believe that 75% of liberals actually think they know what's best for you, regardless how you feel, even tho they've remained in those sheltered hallow halls of academe, and have no clue how the real world works.

Now, back to the question, yes there were people who believed in what Jefferson wrote in his Federalist papers, and to this day believe that the federal government have lost the way a long time ago...

Section 8 of the Constitution states...
The Congress shall have power To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;
To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
To establish post offices and post roads;
To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;—And
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

Notice it doesn't say anything about "universal health care, or social security, or medicare?
 

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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 6:46:56 AM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

Hello, crazy-ass politics and religion people....

Brief prefatory note: I like (in a certain sense of the word) reading what goes on here.... but am 1. far too chicken shit and 2. far too poorly prepared to actually participate as a a rule.

But I have a question for y'all.

I've just been watching on netflix the mini series about John Adams that aired a few years ago on HBO.

In the midst of the Alien and Sedition Act business, when Adams is president, he has an exchange with Jefferson (then his VP) about allying with France vs. allying with Britain.... and Jefferson (in this telling) came out with some stunning (and I can't help suspecting, anachronistic) statement about how the states would not sit by if constitutional rights to free speech were curtailed-- they might well revolt.

It made me wonder... 1) did thinking this idealistic ever really exist? 2) if it did, what the hell happened to it????

I am a mere girl, with no experience of firearms or any other conduit of violence.... but yanno? if i were to take up arms against anything, it would be against dimwits who sought to curtail freedom in the name of "freedom". In other words, I'd be on Jefferson's side.

(I say that, and yet it's not really true. the best I could possibly do is wound someone in the toe by stomping hard.)

When/how did the left become docile and the right become aggravated??

Wouldn't it make infinitely more sense for the right to be complacent and the left to be striving and agitating (given that the right is typically on the side of powerholders?)?

Or am I just misunderstanding or misapplying?




If you spend some time among the great thinkers of that era, I think you'll find that the type of thinking you're wondering about, not only existed but was a real concern. The formation of the US was not a grand picnic where everyone sang camp songs and decided to carve out a nation after the ghost stories. The feeling was one of revolution, not one of let's give up one form of governance just so we can rush into another. There were strong personalities, and brilliant minds involved that were adamant about liberty - something we've lived with long enough now to take them so for granted, that both sides of the aisle like the idea of limiting freedoms and liberties.

Personally, I think the left, given wide latitude will strangle the Constitution. The right, given the same latitude, would eventually abolish it. The thing I most dislike about a part of Bush's administration and Obama's administration is that both, at least for a time, held 3 of the 4 branches of power. I know, I know, there's 3 branches. Executive, legislative, and judicial, but for the sake of argument, let's break legislative into two parts since any bill must pass both. I don't think its ever good for the country for one party to hold so much power. I'd rather have the gridlock of power split and them forced to work together to get anything done rather than one side simply being able to ram its agenda through.

Neither side has the answer for the country as a whole. That is a simple fact of politics and life. Elections tend to run with a small percentage actually electing a president. You'll hear all kinds of claims, but if you do the math where 110 million people voting, a 5 million vote swing is less than 5 percent. You may end up with 59 million votes, but that's going to leave 51 million on the outs. Concentrating so much power in the hands of so few in the different branches of government in this day and age means pandering to the fringes in order to keep them happy, while trying to do things that don't completely enrage the other side.

Therein lies the real issue. The fringes are the problem for the most part. And neither of them really give a shit about the Constitution unless they can use it in their argument against the other. I read a long time ago where some analyst predicted that abortion would be the single most divisive issue in politics to come. I'm not sure it is, but what I do believe is that the battle lines and strategies that have emerged from that struggle have defined overall battlefield. Both sides will capture the most heart wrenching situation they can find for their cause, rally behind it, stick to it, and completely ignore the fact that what they argue affects a tiny portion of what they're actually wanting to achieve.

Freedom of speech is another good example. Folks like to argue it and exhort it, but both sides also like to limit it.

The only thing I know for certain is the chasm has grown deeper over the past years than it ever has, the the name calling and finger pointing more viscous than it ever has been. There is no longer any compromise available that doesn't piss off one side or the other.

And this is mostly from people who see the attitudes and fear of revolution as a foreign concept because they've lived with the results of those early maneuvers long enough to take them for granted.

< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 8/14/2010 6:47:25 AM >


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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 6:56:56 AM   
SinJunky


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


Notice it doesn't say anything about "universal health care, or social security, or medicare?

 


If he'd thought of it I bet he would have included universal health care and social security... it just makes sense really.

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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 7:02:36 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SinJunky


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


Notice it doesn't say anything about "universal health care, or social security, or medicare?

 


If he'd thought of it I bet he would have included universal health care and social security... it just makes sense really.


I doubt it, I'm of the impression that the founding fathers didn't want a centralized federal government, and certainly not one that would bankrupt the country.

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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 8:11:54 AM   
Elisabella


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quote:

Palin will say something stupid like, “I can see Russia from my house”


If the "better educated" left can't tell the difference between Sarah Palin and Tina Fey, the "ignorant right" must be beyond any hope whatsoever.

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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 9:41:33 AM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
Notice it doesn't say anything about "universal health care, or social security, or medicare?

True.  It also denied women the right to vote and allowed slavery.  There's no mention of the Internet, the financial service industry, modern communication techniques, etc.  Do you advocate a return to the original Constitution, minus amendments?  If it was such a perfect document, there would've been no need for amendments in the first place.

BTW Owner, the Sarah Palin quote's a myth.  Tina Fey said that. Palin said this, in the interview with Couric: "We have trade missions back and forth. We-- we do-- it's very important when you consider even national security issues with Russia as Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where-- where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border. It is-- from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that an eye is being kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because they are right there. They are right next to-- to our state."

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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 9:42:53 AM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage
The thing is that the left is mainly comprised of people with education, people who understand what's up. 

That's pretty insulting, DS.  My workplace is 98% conservative, almost all are college graduates, and many have graduate degrees.

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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 10:07:53 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

Palin will say something stupid like, “I can see Russia from my house”


If the "better educated" left can't tell the difference between Sarah Palin and Tina Fey, the "ignorant right" must be beyond any hope whatsoever.


Yea, can you imagine saying something that is quoted by so many people and never getting credit for saying it. I think Tina should sue someone.


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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 10:22:15 AM   
housesub4you


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Wow a movie and you think it is fair...tell me did you watch F/911 and believe the stuff about Bush and his oil ties to terrorists (hell they loaned him money 3 times and stayed at the GOV Mansion in TX  all in public record) or write that off as left wing BS.  We each choose what is real and ignore that which makes us look dumb...as for FOX they make a lot of people look dumb

We each seek what we believe and it drives us apart


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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 10:38:22 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyWood

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

Hello, crazy-ass politics and religion people....



Say hello to those on the left too, please!




lol!

trust me when i say i've lurked here-- i know you're all nuts. otherwise you'd find other things to do, wouldn't you??? :)


The only thing more crazy than posting here is lurking here.... talk about how bored you must be to find this forum interesting enough to lurk

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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 10:46:39 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
what Jefferson wrote in his Federalist papers

Precisely which Federalist Papers did Jefferson write?

Maybe before you start making pronouncement about what the founders intended you should know enough history to know who wrote what?

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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 11:06:52 AM   
vincentML


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May I suggest it is a mistake to harken back to Adams and Jefferson when observing the fracturing of our society today. I realize first principles are important. I do not wish them to be disregarded. But emotions color what we see. Times have changes and so has the the nature of the voting body and the nature of communications. The communications change is too obvious to dwell upon. But consider the difference in the voting population. In 1800 only white male property owners had sufferage. In 2010 sufferage is extended to anyone over age 18 regardless of gender or race. First principles are looked at with new sets of eyes.

Someone wrote elsewhere and I do not have the citation that the current culture war began after 1960 when first the Civil Rights Movement, then the Anti-War Movement, the Feminist Movement, etc swept into the streets and across university campuses. The suggestion is that the culture war is between the university educated and blue collar (Joe the Plumber) types. This culture gap has been repeatedly exploited since Nixon's 1968 law and order, silent majority campaign. The exploitation continues. The culture gap is exploited for votes. Ya betcha!





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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 11:19:35 AM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage
The thing is that the left is mainly comprised of people with education, people who understand what's up. 

That's pretty insulting, DS.  My workplace is 98% conservative, almost all are college graduates, and many have graduate degrees.



and why compromise is so difficult.

And yet, the accusations of elitist action and thought erupt from left leaners like volcano from Kilauea.

It is abysmally ironic how similar and close actions are from either extreme, especially when fingers are pointed and tripe spewed.


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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 12:11:36 PM   
DarlingSavage


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

The thing is that the left is mainly comprised of people with education, people who understand what's up. They are, in a sense, a bit more refined.


Just curious, would this be considered arrogant or condescending? I always get those two mixed up.



Back on topic:

I agree with tazzy when she says "The deregulation has been ongoing since Reagan. It will take at least that long to straighten it all out."

Might even take longer.



You're right, I could have chosen better words.  But I said what I said because most of the people I know in school are liberals like me.  There are very few conservatives. 

I also realize that dereg has been taking place since REAGAN, another republican.  And I am certainly in complete agreement with Tazzygirl's statement.  However, the Bush admin took deregulation to untold of heights:

All meaningful environmental oversight and regulation of the natural gas production was removed by the executive branch and Congress in the 2005 Federal Energy Appropriations Bill. Without restraints from the Clean Water Act, Safe Drinking Water Act, Clean Air Act, and CERCLA, the gas industry is steamrolling over vast land segments in the West.  Exploitation is so rapid that in less than 6 months in one county, 10 new well pads were built on the banks of the Colorado River, the source of agricultural and drinking water for 25 million people downstream. Spacing has dropped from one well pad per 240 acres to one per 10 acres. From the air it appears as a spreading, cancer-like network of dirt roads over vast acreage, contributing to desertification.

From: TEDX The Endocrine Disruption Exchange > Chemicals in Natural Gas Operations: Introduction

< Message edited by DarlingSavage -- 8/14/2010 12:13:07 PM >


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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 12:17:29 PM   
DarlingSavage


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage
The thing is that the left is mainly comprised of people with education, people who understand what's up. 

That's pretty insulting, DS.  My workplace is 98% conservative, almost all are college graduates, and many have graduate degrees.



You're right, I'm sorry I said that, it was late, and mainly, I just kept seeing pictures of people from the Tea Party movement in my head when I wrote that. 


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RE: "john adams," and threats of radical left... - 8/14/2010 12:22:28 PM   
thornhappy


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I didn't hear about a culture war before the Pats came along (Robertson and Buchanan).
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

May I suggest it is a mistake to harken back to Adams and Jefferson when observing the fracturing of our society today. I realize first principles are important. I do not wish them to be disregarded. But emotions color what we see. Times have changes and so has the the nature of the voting body and the nature of communications. The communications change is too obvious to dwell upon. But consider the difference in the voting population. In 1800 only white male property owners had sufferage. In 2010 sufferage is extended to anyone over age 18 regardless of gender or race. First principles are looked at with new sets of eyes.

Someone wrote elsewhere and I do not have the citation that the current culture war began after 1960 when first the Civil Rights Movement, then the Anti-War Movement, the Feminist Movement, etc swept into the streets and across university campuses. The suggestion is that the culture war is between the university educated and blue collar (Joe the Plumber) types. This culture gap has been repeatedly exploited since Nixon's 1968 law and order, silent majority campaign. The exploitation continues. The culture gap is exploited for votes. Ya betcha!





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