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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 8:22:22 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Read the post a little more carefully, Bill.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity



From the AP:

quote:

New microbe discovered eating oil spill in Gulf



This microbe thrives in cold water, with temperatures in the deep recorded at 5 degrees Celsius (41 Fahrenheit).

Hazen suggested that the bacteria may have adapted over time due to periodic leaks and natural seeps of oil in the Gulf...


And again, from the article I quoted for the OP:

quote:

...natural oil seeps in the Gulf of Mexico have put out the equivalent of an Exxon Valdez spill each year, Hazen said.


Large quantities of oil occur in the Gulf of Mexico naturally, and it has a newly discovered natural microbial enemy - which is extremely good news for everyone except those on the far left who are unwilling to accept the science for purely ideological reasons which make sense to no one but themselves.





So, basically, you have a dude who is bought and paid for by BP claiming that the spill isn't that much above background.

Seems the other guys are refuting that.

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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 8:22:24 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		Here's a little more info on the microbes...

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/08/bacteria-are-gobbling-gulf-oil.html

My concern is that it's clear that microbes eating oil are an unpredictable process at best. Right now, the microbes have theoretically eaten the alkanes (think short chain) in the oil, along with the claim that they didn't produce much CO2 or deplete the oxygen. Still doesn't make a lot of sense to me- kind of like the initial BP claim that the well was only spewing 5,000 barrels/day. Furthermore, in contrast to the article which points out that alkanes are the most toxic, this is certainly debatable. Benzene is a known carcinogen and certainly isn't an alkane. Many poly aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) are also carcinogenic as well and the apparently, the bugs aren't touching these compounds. So again, any shouts of joy that the gulf is fine, well, it's going to take a long time to establish that.

Sam

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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 8:29:47 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		[quote)ORIGINAL: Archer
Now what happens when we find out that this thing has some side effects that we hadn't counted on? Unintended consequences are the rule in nature not the exception.
[/quote]
that is my concern... adaptations arent always good news in the long run



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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 8:31:35 AM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Here's a little more info on the microbes...

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/08/bacteria-are-gobbling-gulf-oil.html

My concern is that it's clear that microbes eating oil are an unpredictable process at best. Right now, the microbes have theoretically eaten the alkanes (think short chain) in the oil, along with the claim that they didn't produce much CO2 or deplete the oxygen. Still doesn't make a lot of sense to me- kind of like the initial BP claim that the well was only spewing 5,000 barrels/day. Furthermore, in contrast to the article which points out that alkanes are the most toxic, this is certainly debatable. Benzene is a known carcinogen and certainly isn't an alkane. Many poly aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) are also carcinogenic as well and the apparently, the bugs aren't touching these compounds. So again, any shouts of joy that the gulf is fine, well, it's going to take a long time to establish that.

Sam


More from the cited article:

The first peer-reviewed study of the oil—published last week—suggested that the bugs weren't doing much, however, at least in the plume that was analyzed. But a study published today, which takes a look at the microbes themselves, finds that oil-eating bacteria are flocking to the spill in droves, though it's not clear how quickly they're digesting it.

.....

Oil is made up of dozens of different hydrocarbon molecules. The ones Hazen analyzed—the alkanes—are generally the first to go, says Atlas. As for how long the rest will remain, it's unclear. It all depends on how stable the oil emulsion—the giant glob formed when oil and water mix—turns out to be. If it disperses easily, the bacteria shouldn't have much trouble. But if it holds together, Atlas says, they'll have a harder time breaking it apart.

boi


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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 8:34:02 AM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		Alkanes are simply saturated, long or short chain hydrocarbons with or without branching and no double bonds. 
Alkenes are similar but with one or more double bonds between adjacent C atoms
Alkynes have one or more triple bonds.
the last 2 are known as unsaturated hydrocarbons.

These 3 comprise the aliphatic hydrocarbons (fatty)

Aromatic hydrocarbons tend to be more toxic.  They have one or more resonant hexagonal rings with or without substitutions at the vertices.  Most insecticides are aromatic hydrocarbons as are many agents used in chemical warfare (note, chemical warfare for the purposes of this includes naturally occuring substances produced by bacteria, plants, insects, etc as well as those banned by the Geneva convention).

There ya go, a year of 8 AM organic chemistry classes in 2 paragraphs

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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 8:41:17 AM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		Well boijen there is a mixed review on what's better for microbes a cohesive slick or a broken up emmulsion or a dispersed mixture.

microbes have short life spans and breed quickly when the food supply is large.

So a cohesive spill where the food source is all in one spot means they can breed and multiply and eat it up more quickly.
In the past microbes eating that fast and all in the same spot produced those dead zones where oxygen was depleted. This new microbe is not producing that and I have to say that is likely the single most shocking aspect of this new discovery for me and other scientists I know who have been discussing it. Spread out the microbes are limited to the areas where the oil exists in enough supply to make the microbes live long enough to make it to the next part of a broken up slick in question.
Microbes don't travel and jump from one part of the plume to another very well. They suck at traveling, lacking a means of actually swimming, they ride the currents.






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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 8:49:11 AM   
BoiJen


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Status: offline 		Archer, I was simply quoting the article.

Now, I have to ask, what level of oxygen is considered "depleted"? What happens if a "dead zone" does occur? How does the environment compensate? How are oxygen level s restored to an area?

Not understanding the impact of that possibility other than "that sounds like it could be bad" makes it hard to comprehend potential problems associated with what we're being told.

boi


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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 9:07:08 AM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		Oh no I got that you were quoting, I just wanted you to include in your thinking that that was not the only thought out there in the science community on that topic.

You know in sea water I'm not sure what is considered "depleted", I'd have to look it up. Dead zones would be the equivalent of areas of smoke or something in air, but much slower to disperse. Animals in the floating dead zone could suffocate. Wave actions are the thing that puts the most oxygen into sea water, so storms and currents would reoxygenate the water in a short time, but again how many animals would die off in the mean time. zoplankton and krill die off could have a cascading effect on the ecosystem. Not a forgone conclussion but a worst case scenario would be a large drop in numbers of animals from the zoplanktons all the way up the food chain to the sharks and other apex predators forcing migration shifts to find food elsewhere.

But likely as not that would be a short lived migration but the numbers in a die off might make it tough.

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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 9:17:49 AM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Oh no I got that you were quoting, I just wanted you to include in your thinking that that was not the only thought out there in the science community on that topic.

You know in sea water I'm not sure what is considered "depleted", I'd have to look it up. Dead zones would be the equivalent of areas of smoke or something in air, but much slower to disperse. Animals in the floating dead zone could suffocate. Wave actions are the thing that puts the most oxygen into sea water, so storms and currents would reoxygenate the water in a short time, but again how many animals would die off in the mean time. zoplankton and krill die off could have a cascading effect on the ecosystem. Not a forgone conclussion but a worst case scenario would be a large drop in numbers of animals from the zoplanktons all the way up the food chain to the sharks and other apex predators forcing migration shifts to find food elsewhere.

But likely as not that would be a short lived migration but the numbers in a die off might make it tough.



So, hypothetically speaking...in a perfect world, what would happen is that these "new bacteria" would chow through this stuff fairly quickly and get done before the end of the hurricane season? Any dead zones would be dealt with by seasonal disturbances that would presumably cause enough motion to reoxygenate the water?

What we're missing in the perfect world scenario is 1) having a certainty that the only "bad" byproduct is depleted oxygen zones, 2) certainty in how fast these little bugs can eat the oil, 3) certainty that these bugs can eat all the bad stuff in the area, 4) certainty that there would be enough activity to reoxygenate the water (but not destroy New Orleans...again) and 5) certainty that all of this would happen fast enough to not damage the current food chain.

That's a lot of certainty that I don't think we have.

Sanity, can you see the problem with where you're headed with this yet?

boi

< Message edited by BoiJen -- 8/26/2010 9:19:11 AM >

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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 9:38:55 AM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		Well we know for a fact that these bugs don't eat all the bad stuff.

They eat the light alkanes, leaving the heavier sludge type products alone, so expect tarballs to be around for awhile.

Oxygen depletion with these microbes is a huge question, these are microbes that some how seem to eat the oil without depleting the oxygen, and that's pretty shocking for me, as that has always been the down side to microbes being used for this. So that is a part of this research that I would want explored more. It's wonderul news if there are no sneaky little side effects that we have not figured out yet.



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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 10:00:18 AM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		By the way, the Exxon Valdese spill is degrading at an estimated rate of 4% a year.

Source is Wiki.

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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 10:02:16 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		"Wave actions are the thing that puts the most oxygen into sea water, so storms and currents would reoxygenate the water in a short time, but again how many animals would die off in the mean time."

Umm, don't think so...

Sam


From marinebio.net

The amount of dissolved gases varies according to the types of life forms in the water. Most living species need oxygen to keep their cells alive (both plants and animals) and are constantly using it up. Replenishment of dissolved oxygen comes from the photosynthetic activity of plants (during daylight hours only) and from surface diffusion (to a lesser extent). If there are a large number of plants in a marine water mass then the oxygen levels can be quite high during the day. If there are few plants but a large number of animals in a marine water mass then the oxygen levels can be quite low. Oxygen is measured in parts per million (also called ppm) and levels can range from zero to over 20 ppm in temperate waters. It only reaches 20 when there are a lot of plants in the water, it is very sunny with lots of nutrients, and the wind is whipping up the surface into a froth. In any water mass there is a maximum amount of dissolved gas that can be found (after which the gas no longer dissolves but bubbles to the surface). This maximum amount increases with a decrease in temperature (thus cold water masses can hold more dissolved gases ... but they can also have none if it has been used up). So, just because a water mass is cold it does not mean it has a lot of dissolved gases. This concept is a little tricky but just remember that the amount of dissolved gases in seawater depends more on the types of life forms (plants and animals) that are present and their relative proportions.

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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 10:39:08 AM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		OK I miss stated the point. let me try to clarify.

Waves and currents from storms will spread around the oxygen levels and fill in dead zones more quickly than plant life will migrate into an area with out them.

Plants put more oxygen in the water in total but the levels of plants in a given area is not something that usually has a huge change in a short time other than regular life cycle blooms. So I glossed over that idea. I shouldn't have. Storms and currents will spread the floating plant plankton and mix them more evenly to fill in dead zones.

It's a complex system and I simplified it too much in my example.





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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 10:44:39 AM   
Sanity


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The climate is much colder up there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

By the way, the Exxon Valdese spill is degrading at an estimated rate of 4% a year.

Source is Wiki.


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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 10:47:27 AM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


The climate is much colder up there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

By the way, the Exxon Valdese spill is degrading at an estimated rate of 4% a year.

Source is Wiki.



One of the things that makes these bacteria different is how they can break down stuff in the cold waters....suddenly that doesn't apply to Prince William Sound?


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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 10:51:09 AM   
Sanity


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There are a lot of factors that are different. How many natural oil seeps are there in Prince William Sound which nurse these particular types of microbial life? And of course its a lot colder up there, and yes temperatures do affect microbial growth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

One of the things that makes these bacteria different is how they can break down stuff in the cold waters....suddenly that doesn't apply to Prince William Sound?








< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/26/2010 10:52:24 AM >

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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 11:07:46 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		"And of course its a lot colder up there, and yes temperatures do affect microbial growth."

Nonsense. Below 100-200 meters, the temperature in most water is the same- cold- between 2 and 5C. The difference between this spill and the Valdez is that the Valdez was a surface spill-the Deepwater Horizon was not. So the only potential comparison between the two is how quickly the surface oil could be broken down, and then there should be significant differences based on temperature. But if the oil eating bacteria thrive in cold water, why didn't they help break down the oil from the Valdez? Because my recollection of that one is that the oil is still doing damage over 20 years later. If the surface oil in the gulf has broken down quickly, that would suggest the activity of a microbe which likes warm temperatures and perhaps sunlight. It's also possible that the dispersants did a good job and that uv, oxygen and maybe a little microbial help are getting rid of the surface oil. But based on the NASA pictures and the estimates published in Science- there's a lot more to go.


Sam

Sam

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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 11:58:43 AM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		The biologist I'd normally ask is hospitalized so I'm asking those here who may know, if these new bacteria are consuming alkanes but not depleting the o2 in teh water what are they doing with it? I realize some is used to make more bacteria but that just delays the oxygen depletion till those bacteria starve and decompose. Is there some other metabolic pathway that doesn't involve O2?

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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 12:12:02 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		DomKen that is the $64,000,000 question. What is the process and what are the biproducts of this specific bacteria eating the oil that allows it to not deplete the oxygen.

Being that the major species found is a brand new species the answer is WE DON"T KNOW YET.

And that is why I'm cautiously joyful that this bacteria has been found, it sounds like a miracle bacteria right now.

Hopefully the facts that we learn about this species are as good as the hype is now. (but I'm not gonna bet money on that)




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RE: Microbes ate BP oil deep-water plume: study - 8/26/2010 12:25:17 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


The climate is much colder up there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

By the way, the Exxon Valdese spill is degrading at an estimated rate of 4% a year.

Source is Wiki.


Sanity, your original post was about this wonderous new COLD WATER bacteria that is eating the spill. Temps it is found in are 4-5 degrees Celsius which is colder than the average temperature of surface water in the Prince Edward sound.
The longer you stick with this post, the more holes get shot in it.
You need to start getting your info from someplace a little more scientifically knowledgable than Rush or Beck or the Washington Times.

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