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shallowdeep -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/6/2010 12:58:54 AM)
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Some collected, partially organized thoughts that I'm not entirely convinced I should post… but they've been kicking around in response to this. Background: I'm straight, relatively inexperienced with submission, have not kissed another man on the lips, nor ever been asked to do so. So, basically, this is all speculative and potentially subject to evolution. Also, it's long... you've been warned.
quote:
Do you consider kissing another man (with tongue) to be a hard limit?
It borders on being one, yes. If someone expressed a need for that as part of submission to them, I'd pass them by. In that sense, it's a hard limit. I honestly don't have enough experience to say whether or not I might be able to bend that limit if it came up in a serious relationship, but I'm having a hard time envisioning circumstances where it would happen.
Now, if I assume a particular definition of submission, assume I should model behavior on select actors, and assume I'm mistaken about what a kiss means to me then, sure, I might be scratching my head and questioning the conditionality of my submission. But I like to think there might, just possibly, be another explanation. :)
One issue that's already been pointed out is that I don't think all submission is about making the submissive partner uncomfortable, or pushing their limits. Simply finding a mutually satisfying way to serve that rarely if ever tests truly unpleasant limits can still be a fulfilling dynamic for some.
Of course, there is something heady about sacrifice and truly genuine vulnerability, isn't there? It trips some of the switches in my strange wiring, at any rate. I think one issue here is that you seem to see a kiss as something minor and perhaps not really a "valid" limit (I know I'm putting a word in your mouth, but hopefully it coveys the gist). At the very least, it makes you question the authenticity of the submission. I think the resolution to the confusion really may be as simple as accepting the fact that for some people it's not a minor thing at all, but that probably deserves some more examination.
Fundamentally, I feel consensual sacrifice of the sort you're talking about really is always conditional. I'm not trying to strip away the precious intensity of a moment of surrender, but somewhere the net pros have to outweigh the net cons. Overcoming something "difficult" or "gross" or "scary" or simply "boring" requires at least a subconscious calculation that it will be worth it, if only in a broader context. Exactly where the weights in that mental, or perhaps emotional, calculus fall will vary substantially betwwen individuals. One conclusion that can be drawn is that an unwillingness to kiss indicates someone doesn't place much value on a dominant's pleasure, but I'm not convinced that is necessarily true.
Now, I'm sure there are some guys who make use of limits while solely in pursuit of their own pleasure, with little concern for what interests others. But having a limit is hardly indicative of that mentality. It may simply mean the negative weights associated with something seem too high to be worth trying. I think the disconnect with some of the other posters here is the somewhat cavalier dismissal of the potential significance of the negatives for some individuals.
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So what's so difficult about one shared kiss for those straight people, if your dominant was so excited by the idea?
Personally, I've been able to identify three major reasons that I would see kissing a guy as particularly difficult:- The "squick" factor.
- The inclusion of another person in the dynamic.
- The intimacy of it.
Kissing a guy is not simply a matter of not being interested, it's actively off-putting for me. An analogy that springs to mind is that it would be something like kissing my sister. It would feel rather "incestuous" in some sense: not just intensely uncomfortable, but somehow wrong. It may not be rational, but it's how I personally feel. If that's all there was to it, I might still be able to overcome it in the same way I might lick a snail or whatever - but it wouldn't be a minor thing. It doesn't help that I'm a bit of germophobe when it comes to mouths. Double-dipping food? In most contexts, that alone is a hard limit for me. :)
Probably more importantly, I tend to view submission as a private, intimate thing. I would be extremely wary of closely involving anyone else, male or female, in the dynamic. With something as potentially charged as a kiss, that holds especially true. There are a a host of issues that introducing another person with their own motivations, feelings, perceptions, and risks could raise. There might be a way to navigate those, but it would require a pretty intense level of trust for me; it's not something I can picture myself doing casually. Hearing a quick assurance that it was okay from someone wouldn't cut it for me, I'd need to know much more about them.
Finally, and probably related to the last, I see kisses as being quite intimate. I really don't want to share that sort of intimacy outside of some sort of relationship. Honestly, this is probably the strongest deterrent.
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Do you not do things that you find "difficult" or "gross" or "scary" or simply "boring" -- or, do you only get "forced" to do things that you have an erotic fantasy about being forced to do?
Actually, the scenario flips my submissive switches in terms of the sacrifice and the pleasure taken from my discomfort. I could probably write a story about the dilemma and, on some level, get into it. But I feel the potential to end up vulnerable in some place I really don't want to be would temper that in reality, so I would opt to avoid putting myself in that situation. If it would make a partner happy, I would generally be pretty willing to let her push a number of boundaries and push myself to at least attempt genuinely difficult, gross, scary, or just plain boring things. I'm not so open to trying things that would make me question whether I really want to be in a relationship with her in the first place.
You brought up the analogy to acting and I have to echo sunshinemiss's feeling that they are completely different situations. Additionally, I'm not sure I buy the following:
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Actors do this kind of thing all the time; actors don't want to have "hard limits" if they are going to limit their roles.
You are drawing a pretty broad conclusion from a rather selective, if perhaps hot, example. I honestly think there might be a little bit of "seeing what you want to see" going on here; I can just as easily bring up examples to show that actors actually do have limits, just like anyone else. Is the ability of an actor who declines to participate in sex scenes really diminished by that hard limit? What about an actress who cuts down on uncomfortable nudity? Would you call their credentials as actors into question because they've decided they have some boundaries that aren't worth crossing, even in pursuit of their art?
I feel the obvious answer is no. And I feel the same holds for submission. Limits can be, as you acknowledge, a good thing. Any submission I give is conditional on trust and compatibility – if I'm going to expose vulnerability to someone, they need to be attuned to, and respectful of, my physical and emotional state. I'm not going to be the best choice to fill every role for every "director" out there, nor would I want to be. I don't see that detracting at all from what I can be for the right match.
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Is a hard limit for a sub any different from an actor who wants to be the best at what he does, and can overcome his own obstacles to do it?
Yes, I think it clearly is. Even in the instance of actors willing to stretch a particular limit, I have to believe they're usually operating with a very different mindset. The distinction I see lies in the fact that they are acting. They are professionals creating a character. It's not about them, at their core, at all. Sure, in the moment they may immerse themselves in the character, but that's extremely transitory – and everyone, including them, knows it's not real. The notion that they are actually enjoying it "with all of their soul" is, I think, possibly another case of seeing what you want to. Not that you should stop enjoying hot, well-acted scenes, of course!
I'm anticipating a question along the lines of, "Okay, what would be so hard about just acting out a kiss then?" The answer, for me, is that it would be a totally different headspace. I might be able to bring myself to 'act' out kissing a guy in a play or something, if I had a good reason to. I don't think I could do it as an act of submission, though. There's nothing artificial about my submission; it's about as real and vulnerable as I can get. I doubt I could achieve the separation I would need to put on an act; I couldn't fake it. Maybe I could manage to let someone kiss me, but I can't fathom returning it in that state. I can imagine it feeling like my sexuality and affections were being treated like toys, mutable at whim. Perhaps that just strikes a little too close to the roots of my interest in submission for me to be comfortable playing with it. Even if possible, it's not a minor request at all.
Now, if I was already in a committed, loving relationship and my partner suddenly discovered that this was something that intensely excited her, I'm not sure what would happen. I'd certainly care about her happiness and probably at least try to get creative about roleplaying it or something. And, with time, who knows. But I'd expect an awful lot of understanding and, if an actual kiss never came to pass, I like to think any partner I'd be with wouldn't interpret that as lessening my love or devotion for her.
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