RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/28/2010 6:02:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
I don't need to verify it.

For your assertions to be justified you kind of do actually.

jus·ti·fy (jst-f)
v. jus·ti·fied, jus·ti·fy·ing, jus·ti·fies
v.tr.
1. To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid: justified each budgetary expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.

Maybe you need me to do that or need to do that yourself but I feel no need to justify anything. I see it with my own eyes and that's all that I need in this case.

If you need a laboratory result on this particular question then that's your path. I could say the same thing I suppose to you. Where are your lab results for the contrary?

This is a circular debate.

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(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/28/2010 9:59:54 PM

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I don't think this has been circular. While theists like to paint atheists as claiming there is no god, that often isn't the position that atheists are actually taking. For instance the reason I consider myself an atheist isn't because of the rejection of the possibility of a deity under any definition but because of a rejection of the methodologies behind various forms of theism. More than anything else in these discussions I want to get across that the claims theists are making are unjustified. That you aren't contesting that you're claims are unjustified is a larger victory for me than I ever hope for in these discussions.

(in reply to Icarys)

RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/29/2010 2:30:55 AM

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Got it. Athiesm doesn't have a meaning.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/29/2010 8:05:32 AM

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Whether you think it's a circular debate or not is irrelevant because it is. I can't prove in a scientific manner that their is a god...You can't prove that there isn't.

The fact that you'd call anything you've gotten from these forums a victory is extremely telling on your view of them. It's no wonder you spend your time dodging and ducking then popping up with a different angle when someone hits you with something you can't deal with in a topic. You deflect and take a different attack because it's a win lose scenario with you...Which is no doubt an ego thing.

I'm not sure what you think you've won but I'll let you have it if it makes you feel better about yourself.

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(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/29/2010 11:27:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

because of a rejection of the methodologies behind various forms of theism

I don't know what you mean by the "methodologies behind" in that sentence, and it's also not clear to me whether you mean "the" various forms of theism (i.e., all of them) or various unspecified particular forms.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 10/1/2010 8:09:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

dodging and ducking then popping up with a different angle when someone hits you with something you can't deal with

Well I know he's viewed the topic since I posted. Ya think maybe this time he hit himself with one?

K.

(in reply to Icarys)

RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 10/2/2010 3:00:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I don't think this has been circular. While theists like to paint atheists as claiming there is no god, that often isn't the position that atheists are actually taking. For instance the reason I consider myself an atheist isn't because of the rejection of the possibility of a deity under any definition but because of a rejection of the methodologies behind various forms of theism. More than anything else in these discussions I want to get across that the claims theists are making are unjustified. That you aren't contesting that you're claims are unjustified is a larger victory for me than I ever hope for in these discussions.

Rational choice: seeking out pursuits that fufill the individual's desires/needs.

Now the concept that you're struggling with is your inference that we all seek evidence/experience to form beliefs - which of course is nonsense.

Even the basic concept of 'human rights' - there is no experience/evidence anywhere to suggest there is such a thing as 'human rights' - yet it is almost universally accepted. Any scientific theory - assuming you don't have the required apparatus in your basement - you are relying on testimony and we've all experienced a time when we've been told something that turned out to be inaccurate (there's a question for rationality in itself).

Could be a wise move to have a look at some of your own beliefs...whence they came etc....may shed some light on the matter....

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 10/2/2010 8:12:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Even the basic concept of 'human rights' - there is no experience/evidence anywhere to suggest there is such a thing as 'human rights' - yet it is almost universally accepted.

Maybe the first time we've agreed on something.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 10/2/2010 6:57:57 PM

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I've been over at a born again christian forum for the last few days. I've popped in but honestly I didn't see anything worth commenting on. Icarys ad hominems, appeals to ridicule and other fallacious distractions don't change that his claims aren't justified and he's not contesting that.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 10/2/2010 10:55:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I've been over at a born again christian forum for the last few days. I've popped in but honestly I didn't see anything worth commenting on. Icarys ad hominems, appeals to ridicule and other fallacious distractions don't change that his claims aren't justified and he's not contesting that.

How long are you gonna keep twirling that skirt...I think I've made it clear from the start it's a matter of faith yet your sure you've gotten some victory as if I've said something that's caused you to go "Eureeeeka!" on my beliefs that were long ago voiced.

My claims are no more "Justified" than the claims of non-existence except for personal observation and faith for about the fourth time I believe on this thread.

Isn't it you that calls yourself a genius?

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 10/2/2010 10:56:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

dodging and ducking then popping up with a different angle when someone hits you with something you can't deal with

Well I know he's viewed the topic since I posted. Ya think maybe this time he hit himself with one?

K.

He's done something..that's for sure.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
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(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 10/3/2010 3:20:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Even the basic concept of 'human rights' - there is no experience/evidence anywhere to suggest there is such a thing as 'human rights' - yet it is almost universally accepted.

You make it sound as if the concept of "human rights" simply dropped out of the sky, and everyone accepted them on blind faith. The concept of human rights has "evolved" after a rich but bloody history with different experiments in types of societies. It is no coincidence that the universal declaration of human rights was drafted and ratified by a significant amount of nations shortly after humanity went through the most horrific experience in known history; WW II. I think that many accept human rights not out of habit or as a matter of belief. Rather, they accept them because they have experienced, or learned about, the alternative.

quote:

Any scientific theory - assuming you don't have the required apparatus in your basement - you are relying on testimony and we've all experienced a time when we've been told something that turned out to be inaccurate (there's a question for rationality in itself).

True. But, I don't need a particle accelerator in my basement to feel confident that those who do get to work with those instruments are part of a self-correcting system. When you publish an article with a notable claim, your peers, those with roughly the same tools at their disposal, will be eager to test your arguments, will examine your experiment, and will try to duplicate or falsify your result. That process, while not perfect and certainly not entirely devoid of political agendas, does seem to get us somewhere. It's not a matter of faith in scientists or even the scientific method... my confidence is based on simply looking at the system and watching it deliver ever more accurate models of nature.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 10/3/2010 3:50:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taleon

You make it sound as if the concept of "human rights" simply dropped out of the sky, and everyone accepted them on blind faith. The concept of human rights has "evolved" after a rich but bloody history with different experiments in types of societies. It is no coincidence that the universal declaration of human rights was drafted and ratified by a significant amount of nations shortly after humanity went through the most horrific experience in known history; WW II. I think that many accept human rights not out of habit or as a matter of belief. Rather, they accept them because they have experienced, or learned about, the alternative.

Nothing you have said provides any sort of evidence that I...as a human being...have certain rights.

I would agree with most of your post.

The absolute root of the concept of human rights comes from the same place as christian morals. That being that both are intended to afford us protection from the worst excesses of human behaviour - but this does not provide any evidence of such a thing as 'human rights'. The concept is a trade off - in a similar vein to the concept of the state and the concept of chritsian morals i.e. that we cannot have absolute freedom in order to maintain a stable/orderly/peaceful society.

'Human rights' isn't a fact - it's a buffer.

And this leads us back to my point - there is no evidence for some of our beliefs - which we take for granted.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taleon

True. But, I don't need a particle accelerator in my basement to feel confident that those who do get to work with those instruments are part of a self-correcting system. When you publish an article with a notable claim, your peers, those with roughly the same tools at their disposal, will be eager to test your arguments, will examine your experiment, and will try to duplicate or falsify your result. That process, while not perfect and certainly not entirely devoid of political agendas, does seem to get us somewhere. It's not a matter of faith in scientists or even the scientific method... my confidence is based on simply looking at the system and watching it deliver ever more accurate models of nature.

I would agree that in many areas we rely on the expertise of some body or other - and would agree that it seems reasonable to accept their findings in the absence of any contradictory evidence. But that's not the same as relying on our own personal experience - which comes back to the point that you can find doubt in even the most accepted wisdom.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 10/3/2010 5:00:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

He's done something..that's for sure.

Yeah, he's not, unh, "noticed" my question.

K.

(in reply to Icarys)

RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 10/3/2010 5:26:29 AM

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quote:

I've been over at a born again christian forum for the last few days.

Wow, I never realized you had seen the light. Congratulations.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 10/3/2010 8:30:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taleon

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Even the basic concept of 'human rights' - there is no experience/evidence anywhere to suggest there is such a thing as 'human rights' - yet it is almost universally accepted.

You make it sound as if the concept of "human rights" simply dropped out of the sky, and everyone accepted them on blind faith. The concept of human rights has "evolved" after a rich but bloody history with different experiments in types of societies.

Oxymoronic, unless you use a bastardized definition of "human rights". Human rights are those rights that you supposedly have simply because you are human. If they evolve over time they are social rights, not human rights. And the proof of that is different societies have different definitions of "human rights"

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 10/3/2010 8:40:51 AM >

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 10/3/2010 9:59:00 AM

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How does all this fit in with civil rights, animal rights and rights of way?

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 10/3/2010 10:22:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

How does all this fit in with civil rights, animal rights and rights of way?

Easily...they are all societal rights, like EVERY right.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 10/3/2010 11:16:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

He's done something..that's for sure.

Yeah, he's not, unh, "noticed" my question.

K.

He's made a habit out of "noticing" things :>

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 10/4/2010 2:51:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
The absolute root of the concept of human rights comes from the same place as christian morals. That being that both are intended to afford us protection from the worst excesses of human behaviour - but this does not provide any evidence of such a thing as 'human rights'. The concept is a trade off - in a similar vein to the concept of the state and the concept of chritsian morals i.e. that we cannot have absolute freedom in order to maintain a stable/orderly/peaceful society.

'Human rights' isn't a fact - it's a buffer.

I will agree that "human rights" can not be derived from simply studying nature. There is nothing concretely measurable that will point in the direction of the articles in the universal declaration of human rights. Indeed, it is not a fact of nature. Simply a document.

Yet, I do accept them, despite lacking physical evidence that will prove their, er, righteousness. But, I don't feel that there is a leap of faith necessary. Just the acceptance that I feel uncomfortable in a place that doesn't recognize those rights. This acceptance comes relatively easy to me, if I look at those unfortunate regions where human rights are violated on a large scale.

Not so much with believing in a God. That goes well beyond the acceptance of a relatively simply notion, it requires me to accept a supposedly intelligent being capable of creating a universe. There is no comparison possible; you obviously can't compare universes with different Gods as you could compare nations which uphold, or fail to uphold, various human rights. Human rights are not concretely measurable, but at least we can trace their history, and we can understand the motivations of those who drafted them. They have anchors and hooks in the real world, to which we can point at and study. With God, there is just a leap of faith. No anchor points, and at least in my case, no understanding or experience of God either.

If you find there is no fundamental difference between accepting human rights, without solid evidence for those rights, and accepting a creator for the universe, then would you accept that there is a considerable difference in scale between the two?

< Message edited by taleon -- 10/4/2010 2:52:15 PM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)

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