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RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 8:54:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

@ Elisabella The difference is that those Jews who justify violence do not completely turn to religion to justify their evil. They turn to Zionism (which is apparently a secular idea) and their alliance with Western values to defend their bombing of Gaza and their theft of Palestinian land. Israel has a few million zealots willing to kill for what they believe in, and they are armed not with home-made fertilizer bombs and suicide belts, but with US supplied nuclear technology. They may be fewer in number than the jihadis (I don't actually know) but they make up for it by being armed to the teeth.

I see your point, especially because Zionism is based on the idea that Israel is their "promised land" but they're not attacking the West so the West isn't going to get too fussed...the American messiah concept is mostly propaganda these days.

If the promised land was on US soil and Zionists tried to take it over we'd probably feel differently.

(in reply to hertz)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 8:59:24 AM

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Woody

One of us is missing something....

"I'm saying that Islam is currently causing the most trouble"

I don't see how this is an accurate statement. Clearly, most of the followers of Islam want to live and let live- ignoring Fox and some occasional Republican BS.

What would be an accurate statement is that "Certain terrorists are using the trappings of Islam to justify their actions." No different than Torquemada used the trappings of Christianity to justify his sadism or Herod used the trappings of Judaism to justify forced conversions.

How is it the fault of Islam that certain individuals have used the religion to claim morality for clearly immoral acts?

Sam

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 9:02:01 AM

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I don't reckon that's pedantry, I suppose it's a matter of opinion what's pedantic or not, but.....jeeze your history book must bs short.

@Hertz, as you're accusing me of being closeminded for using dictionary definitions & common usages of words as...definitions of words, praps you shouldn't expect much typing headed your way.

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 9:09:38 AM

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@Samboct....I really can't see how it's inaccurate.

I'm not sure fault is the right word, Islam isn't an individual or organisation.....and even if for the sake of argument fault is the right word....I didn't use it.

It's just a simple statement of how things are....look at the strife cause by religion in the world today: Islam is way ahead of any other religion.

That's what I keep saying with slightly different wording....I really don't get the objection....it is patently obvious...it's not even close. Are you denying it or....what?

< Message edited by DCWoody -- 9/11/2010 9:10:38 AM >

(in reply to DCWoody)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 9:14:57 AM

hertz

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quote:

****Hertz, as you're accusing me of being closeminded for using dictionary definitions & common usages of words as...definitions of words, praps you shouldn't expect much typing headed your way

LOL Get over yourself, Woody! It might be my imagination, but the very first thing you said to me in reply to my comment was this:

quote:

We are defining religion in the non-retarded manner used by dictionaries.

Post 12, that was. Don't come the peeled prawn with me when you were the one starting out all hostile. If you want a sympathetic and reasonable response from me, don't start out by going on the offensive.

(in reply to DCWoody)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 9:24:14 AM

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Ah, a misunderstanding again. I wasn't claiming offense, I was saying that responding to the statement "how we are defining 'religion'" is in the generally accepted way everyone uses the word, found in dictionaries, in a belittling manner doesn't make you worth long replies.

I don't care about sympathy, but reasonable would be advisable.

(in reply to hertz)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 9:24:26 AM

hertz

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quote:

It's just a simple statement of how things are....look at the strife cause by religion in the world today: Islam is way ahead of any other religion.

The problem with your statement is that it is phrased in a way which makes it impossible to argue past it without changing your terms of reference, which you would object to. The point is obvious.

Many of the fights and disputes in the world today involve people who identify themselves as Muslim. This is not the same as saying Islam is responsible for the trouble.

Many of the fights and disputes in the world today involve western governments. Following your logic, does that mean that the west is responsible for the trouble?

(in reply to hertz)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 9:31:32 AM

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"The point is obvious."

That's what I've been saying :)

"Many of the fights and disputes in the world today involve western governments. Following your logic, does that mean that the west is responsible for the trouble?"

'The west' isn't a religion or belief system of any kind.

(in reply to hertz)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 9:33:55 AM

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"look at the strife cause by religion in the world today"

Sorry-but what you take as self evident, I find to be wildly wrong.

What strife caused by religion today? Compared to the Crusades? Compared to the persecution of Jews by Christians during the Black Death? That was when religions were warring. What about the schisms between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox sects of Christianity? People used to kill each other over whether or not Mary was divine. (I'm assuming James Michener got this right.) Today- what war? Do you feel threatened by Muslims if you'd go to a Muslim enclave wearing a crucifix or a Star of David? Are the vast majority of Muslims waving swords around shouting "Death to Infidels!"? Are the US troops in Afghanistan under attack by the general populace?

This is my point- there isn't a religious war going on now- there are terrorists trying to inflame one for their own purposes. Al Quedolts would be cheering your comments- they want a large scale war. To date- they haven't got it. But saying that Islam is the cause of a large part of the misery of the world us just wildly in error- or at least its tangential. The major cause of strife in the world today is economics, which has been the cause of most strife in the world's history. That a fundamentalist belief in a religion causes economic hardship does exacerbate the situation, but its certainly debatable which religion has lead to more economic inequality in the world today- Islam or Christianity? But there is nothing inherent in the teachings of Islam that leads to either terrorism or economic hardship- look at the Wikipedia under Islam or check the thread on Islamophobia (which is getting pretty silly by now.)

Sam

(in reply to DCWoody)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 9:41:56 AM

hertz

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quote:

'The west' isn't a religion or belief system of any kind.

I didn't say it was. I was attempting to help you understand why I disagree with you by putting up a complimentary argument - that's how debate works. But if you'd prefer to play the certainty game, then this statement of yours:

quote:

look at the strife cause by religion in the world today: Islam is way ahead of any other religion.

Is wrong, and stoopid beyond belief. I've now said all I want to say to you on the subject - have a nice day, and please feel free to have the last word.

(in reply to samboct)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 9:43:01 AM

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I really have little choice but to repeat things I've said earlier. Such as 'today' being an important qualifier (as in recently, not as in literally the last few hours), and....again, having to point out that I have not suggested Islam is inherently worse than other religions.

I am not making any of these other claims you keep bringing into it.

It seems (and I don't mean to put words into your mouth, I'm just trying to advance the discussion, feel free to correct this) that your response to my question 'are you denying it or what?' is essentially that you're not denying it, but the harm of Islam* (or all religions combined) happening today is little compared to what religions (many of which aren't Islam) have done in the past.

Which I would agree with....but is nothing to do with what I've said.

*or rather, as you've been very clear about, certain (but definitely not all) individuals within Islam.

(in reply to samboct)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 9:47:53 AM

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@hertz
It's incomparable bollocks that misrepresents (again) what I've said, and you know it.

And you know it's not wrong, otherwise you'd have suggested your alternative (buddism? the jews? scientology?)

(in reply to DCWoody)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 9:51:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

The difference is that those Jews who justify violence do not completely turn to religion to justify their evil.

Bullshit. They turn to perfectly justified self defense.

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and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
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(in reply to hertz)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 9:53:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

The difference is that those Jews who justify violence do not completely turn to religion to justify their evil.

Bullshit. They turn to perfectly justified self defense.

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with that?

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 10:03:46 AM

hertz

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quote:

willbeurdaddy: Bullshit. They turn to perfectly justified self defense.

That's certainly the narrative of Zionism - 'They want to kill us all!' - and the Holocaust, and the Palestinian attempts to defend their homeland is often put forward as evidence of the correctness of the claim.

But whether it is true is debatable. Certainly, not all Jews believe it, neither do all Israelis. And I don't.

(in reply to DCWoody)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 12:39:14 PM

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Lisa, great cartoon and I agree with your comments.

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(in reply to AlwaysLisa)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 4:03:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

quote:

Christianity, the religion of the people who first settled the US,

Don't get pedantic :P

Technically it wasn't the US till after it was settled.

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(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 5:35:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Technically it wasn't the US till after it was settled.

Exactly. It's a cultural clash, not a fight between two plots of land.

(in reply to luckydawg)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 5:37:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody
'The west' isn't a religion or belief system of any kind.

It's not a religion but it does come with a set of cultural values.

(in reply to DCWoody)

RE: We come in peace... - 9/12/2010 3:08:24 AM

hertz

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Precisely. 'The West' is shorthand for a free(ish) market economy, secularism, freedom of speech and democracy - these are the cultural values which distinguish 'The West' from elsewhere.

When you look at it like this, you can see that 'Islam' is essentially a value system that stands in opposition to secularism in the same way that the free market economy stands in opposition to the command economy, democracy stands in opposition to theocracy, and freedom of speech stands in opposition to speech restrictions. Obviously, it isn't quite as simple as this because Islam (more specifically Sharia) also has things to say about the operation of the free market.

I would argue, strongly, that what we are looking at here is a clash of Culture (or Philosophy), where the values we hold dear are not necessarily shared by the others we share our planet with. It isn't Islam v The West.

For what it is worth, I think it might be possible to come to a sensible accommodation with a culture which embraces Islam as long as the other values we hold dear - democracy, the free market and freedom of speech are in place. A westernised version of Islam is a very real possibility and would not pose any threat to the West. I think it is very easy to see that, and I have met many Muslims who share many of the values I hold dear.

However, it is more difficult to come to an accommodation with a culture which accepts none of our values, and which sees us as an invader and very real threat (which we clearly are). Al Qaida, I believe, may represent a set of cultural values which are so at odds with our own that it may prove impossible for us to reach an accommodation.

The point is, Islam is the most visible part of that opposing philosophy - it is not all there is.

(in reply to Elisabella)

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