RE: Who BP blames for the oil disaster

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RE: Who BP blames for the oil disaster - 9/20/2010 8:55:00 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

No, because of the size of BP. The one thing a firm of this size need to operate firmly is a steady flow of investors. If investers dont have the confidence that the company is being run properly, they will pull oout. It isnt in BPs best interest to fix any report, and the same would be true if it was purely a 100% British or American owned outfit.

Polite, I don't think you even buy your own argument.

You are trying to tell me that it is not in their best interest to try and minimize their role in what has already become an avalanche of lawsuits?

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RE: Who BP blames for the oil disaster - 9/20/2010 9:07:26 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

~Fast Reply~

I do not know why this surprises anyone. In many ways it is similar to the Challenger explosion.

Huh?

That was eloquent.

I think that the term you want is acceptable risk. As technology advances it is something we live with. It is what led to the Challenger explosion and what led to the Deepwater Horizon explosion. It is sad, but it is not something that one can point a finger at and say, "This one thing caused it."

I'm sorry. Next time I will elaborate on what a ridiculous analogy you were trying to make.

And look! Here we are already at the next time.

Were there any allegations of negligence in the space shuttle disasters?

Were there, and are there, allegations that BP ignored proper procedures and violated federal regulations?

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RE: Who BP blames for the oil disaster - 9/20/2010 9:10:28 AM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Were there any allegations of negligence in the space shuttle disasters?

Yes.

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RE: Who BP blames for the oil disaster - 9/20/2010 9:36:19 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Were there any allegations of negligence in the space shuttle disasters?

Yes.

Wasn't that what they identified as the cause of the explosion, shoddy preparation?

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RE: Who BP blames for the oil disaster - 9/20/2010 9:40:18 AM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Were there any allegations of negligence in the space shuttle disasters?

Yes.

Wasn't that what they identified as the cause of the explosion, shoddy preparation?

No.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: Who BP blames for the oil disaster - 9/20/2010 10:16:20 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I do not read British Newspapers for the simple fact I am aware of how different editorials can adjust a story to suit their readership, further to that I do not like where a newspaper can destroy a person one day by splashing their name, image and affairs across the front page in a sensationalist manner and then when brought to book later by the court of law, the apology they are required to print is somewhere way off the front pages, somewhere near the back, at the bottom and in uninspiring lower case writing. I decided long ago newspapers were not worth the trees they were printed upon.

As to BP being of interest to the British because of their pension funds, I am to be fair uncaring of, as many in this country cannot afford to lodge spare funds in pension plans as they do not have spare funds, my own pension plan when it was I could afford it went down with the Equitable Life fiasco, so now I just intend to work as long as I can in my own business. If I die on the job, well industrious to the end, far better I believe than wasting away post working life.

( Ever noticed how many of those who have dedicated a lifetime to hard work, degrade and die within a few short years after retirement), I have seen this with three one time small business owners, so much so, my last employer being the doddering old bastard he was, hung on in there with the intention to hold the reins until he died. My understanding retirement is not healthy, and neither is putting hope, belief and trust in companies who go around destroying what they can as a bi product of their quest for wealth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

I don't know whether it has crossed your mind or not, but most Brits couldn't give a flying fuck what happened to BP.

BP is held by a lot of British pension funds. Those people absolutely care, and have cared vocally.

Read your own newspapers!

Your manifesto not withstanding, let alone the huge difference between a news story and an editorial, your point about "most Brits" not giving "a flying fuck" is simply incorrect, as shown.

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RE: Who BP blames for the oil disaster - 9/20/2010 10:58:27 AM

samboct

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There's not a bad link between at least the Challenger disaster and BP's oil spill. In both cases, in an effort to save money, decisions were made by people who didn't have a good understanding of the technological requirements.

In terms of the Challenger disaster- a lousy design, due to political considerations was pushed beyond known restrictions. In terms of BP's screw up- in an effort to cut costs, inadequate drilling mud packing was used- saved at best a few million dollars, but given the pressures they were operating at, proved to be penny wise and pound foolish.

The O-ring issue on Challenger. Two problems: one, bad design, and two, stupid operation. The first one- bad design was due to political considerations. IIRC, Thiokol, in Utah was tasked to construct the booster. In order to get it to Kennedy, it had to be made in two parts, necessitating a joint sealed with an o-ring. Original NASA design called for a single piece casing- no joint needed- also no o-ring. Much better idea- would have saved weight as well.

Dumb operation- rubber has a well known energy characteristics due to temperature. Warmer rubber can absorb more energy. Engineers calculated that the O-ring would not have sufficient sealing force below freezing- hence- don't fly if the temperature is too cold. However, a couple of scrubbed launched with their attendant expense (costs lots of money to put liquid oxygen into the bird- and then take it out) lead a manager to overlook this minor issue and he gave the order for the bird to fly- with the well known result.

In terms of BP- I talked to a guy in the oil industry who's owned/drilled a number of wells and got an earful about BP's operational strategy. His comment was the following:

1) Transocean does what BP asks- that's the typical business arrangement in the industry.
2) BP's plan called for inadequate drilling muds around the blowout preventer and various piping when going down through the surface. It's not that mud is all that expensive, but there are large volumes required. Cutting back on the volume saved perhaps a few million, but given the pressure, was just an idiotic idea. If the blowout didn't happen when drilling, odds are they would have had trouble in operation.
3) Piping was also inadequate for the depths they were at- too thin.
4) BP has a track record of valving off gas below the surface and flaring it, so as to not attract attention. This lead to an explosion in a port not that long ago (I may have conflated the two issues- but the idea that BP operates recklessly is well known.) The companies cost cutting measures are well known in the industry.

In terms of the British connection- a few years back I ran into one of BP's R+D staff. His description when we were contemplating going out for drinks- "Cost conscious Brit". It seemed to be pretty accepted by the group that British companies are notoriously tight at social events (Actually, Dow is as well....) and that BP, regardless of name changes, still has a lot of the British corporate culture.

Sam

< Message edited by samboct -- 9/20/2010 11:01:42 AM >

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RE: Who BP blames for the oil disaster - 9/20/2010 11:28:31 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Were there any allegations of negligence in the space shuttle disasters?

Yes.

I am speaking of willful, legal negligence on the part of NASA. So feel free to provide examples. Because we are going to hear many examples of that on the part of BP in the upcoming legal actions against them.

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RE: Who BP blames for the oil disaster - 9/20/2010 11:38:09 AM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Were there any allegations of negligence in the space shuttle disasters?

Yes.

I am speaking of willful, legal negligence on the part of NASA. So feel free to provide examples. Because we are going to hear many examples of that on the part of BP in the upcoming legal actions against them.

This is the same crap you pull on political discussions.

Your counter argument is so weak it is laughable.

Allegations are not the same as proof. We do not have published investigations at this time. What we have right now is public hysteria at the start of a disaster.

If you are making your argument in the political realm, you are equating allegations with proof in the fashion of mud-slinging. So your argument is flawed.

If you are trying to be more reasonable about it, what you are doing is conflating allegation with proof. Which is a logical flaw. Therefore your argument is wrong.

If you are trying to do something else, I cannot tell from the rhetoric.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

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RE: Who BP blames for the oil disaster - 9/20/2010 11:52:56 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Were there any allegations of negligence in the space shuttle disasters?

Yes.

I am speaking of willful, legal negligence on the part of NASA. So feel free to provide examples. Because we are going to hear many examples of that on the part of BP in the upcoming legal actions against them.

This is the same crap you pull on political discussions.

Your counter argument is so weak it is laughable.

Allegations are not the same as proof. We do not have published investigations at this time. What we have right now is public hysteria at the start of a disaster.

If you are making your argument in the political realm, you are equating allegations with proof in the fashion of mud-slinging. So your argument is flawed.

If you are trying to be more reasonable about it, what you are doing is conflating allegation with proof. Which is a logical flaw. Therefore your argument is wrong.

If you are trying to do something else, I cannot tell from the rhetoric.

What crap is that, daring to disagree with you?

What I am trying to point out is the situations are not analogous.

I very clearly stated that the allegations against BP were allegations.

But they are allegations they will have to answer in the many civil trials and criminal investigations pending against them.

The Challenger and Columbia disasters have never been proven to rise to the level of civil or criminal negligence despite the investigations and the number of years since each happened.

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RE: Who BP blames for the oil disaster - 9/20/2010 12:03:58 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Standard Oil and BP are now joined at the hip, and have been for a good thirty years now.
Almost none of the stocholders in the two are British companies, though it's possible that Goldman Sachs and BlackRock have shed a lot of their stock over the last few months.

It's interesting that you insist on making the distinction between BP and British Petroleum but still refer to Standard Oil which has not existed since 1911.

I'd confused Standard Oil (who British Petroleum bought out a while back) and Amoco (who bought up a controlling interest in them in the '80s, which is why they abandoned the name "British Petroleum").

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RE: Who BP blames for the oil disaster - 9/20/2010 2:28:53 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

No, because of the size of BP. The one thing a firm of this size need to operate firmly is a steady flow of investors. If investers dont have the confidence that the company is being run properly, they will pull oout. It isnt in BPs best interest to fix any report, and the same would be true if it was purely a 100% British or American owned outfit.

Polite, I don't think you even buy your own argument.

You are trying to tell me that it is not in their best interest to try and minimize their role in what has already become an avalanche of lawsuits?

Thats exactly what I am telling you. If you think of it, an internal report, even if the did use some external professionals, dodging the issue would be a disaster. This is simply because it will soon be discovered to be a whitewash by any official report. Like I said, a whitewash is not in BPs best interest.

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RE: Who BP blames for the oil disaster - 9/20/2010 2:35:24 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Arse. Amococ, not Standard oil.

Your not far out Moonie, as I understand it. Amoco took over parts of Standard Oil, if not all of it. British Petroleum and Amoco merged. Armco figures into it somewhere as well. The whole group renamed itself BP at a later date.

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RE: Who BP blames for the oil disaster - 9/20/2010 2:37:40 PM

Moonhead

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I can never keep the names of these American oil companies straight, to be honest: there's loads of the things to start off with and they breed like rabbits on viagra...

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