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The land of Hope and Opportunity ? - 9/25/2010 6:22:45 PM   
Aneirin


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America, the land of hope and opportunity, is it still this, or has it become just like the lands that were left behind in the seeking of a new ideal ?

Locking Out the Immigrant
by Jacob G. Hornberger, June 1991
America of the 1800s was the most unique society in the history of man. People could engage in virtually any economic enterprise without permission of their public officials. People could become as wealthy as they want, and there was nothing the government could do about it. They could dispose of their money in any way they saw fit. And they could travel anywhere they desired without a passport or other evidence of governmental consent. This is what it once meant to be an American. This is what it once meant to be free.

But perhaps the most unique aspect of American society of the 1800s was that reflected by the Statue of Liberty: free immigration. For this was a society in which the citizenry prohibited their public officials from interfering with the right of people everywhere to come to the United States to live and work.

What was the result of this unusual society — a society without income taxation, welfare, social security, licensing, passports, subsidies, economic regulations, and immigration restrictions? The result was the most economically prosperous nation in the history of man! And this despite the fact that thousands of penniless immigrants, many of whom could not speak English, were flooding American shores every day.

But prosperity for the poor was not the real significance of our ancestors' policy of freedom of immigration. The true significance is a much more profound one. For the first time in history, oppressed and persecuted people everywhere had hope — hope that if they were able to escape the tyranny under which they suffered, there was a place which would accept them. America was a beacon — a beacon of liberty which shone through the darkness of oppression, persecution, and tyranny throughout the world — a beacon which lit the hearts of millions who knew that if they could just escape, there was a nation, albeit faraway, to which they could flee.

What went wrong, why is America not what it once was ?
Is it time the statue of liberty was taken down, despite it's association with freeing the blacks of America from the chains of captivity, for the lady represents something many on here revile against although their ancestors might have thought different.
But of immigration, is it so bad ?
Economist's think different ;

Locking out the immigrant

But if the present status is to be continued, America the land of hope and opportunity becomes no better than the lands the American ancestors left behind to seek freedom.
In which case where next for those that seek freedom to be themselves ?



_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone
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RE: The land of Hope and Opportunity ? - 9/25/2010 6:31:11 PM   
kdsub


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If immigration is what made America great then it is still the greatest because we still allow more immigrants to our country than any other...sooo what are you talking about.

Butch

ps... 1,000,000 people immigrate to the US every year compared to 72,000 for the UK approx.

There are approx 20,000,000 illegal immigrants in America...a third of your total population

Where do you get locking out the immigrant?...How much is enough to you?

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/25/2010 6:39:22 PM >


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RE: The land of Hope and Opportunity ? - 9/25/2010 6:45:36 PM   
servantforuse


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Immigration isn't what made America great. Working hard made America great.

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RE: The land of Hope and Opportunity ? - 9/25/2010 6:55:13 PM   
Aneirin


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Don't get me wrong, America was always a county I idolised, it fitted in with my ideals, but as I have got older and learned more, i.e. become aware of the news from the place, I have become more unsure, but I still see America as the land of freedom for myself if I can head for the hills and forest away from the politics and bullshit that infects the centres of population, that is of course if I can get in !!!

Which is looking harder and harder all the time, the doors are closing.

As to numbers, statistics, one has to bear in mind the size of the land mass, the UK that being England , Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is about the same size as Oregon with reports that England on it's own is about the same size as Alabama, does that put the numbers into perspective ?





_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: The land of Hope and Opportunity ? - 9/25/2010 6:59:38 PM   
kdsub


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Come on over Aneirin...you would fit right in...but don't think you can get away from politics by moving to the country...especially if you move to Missouri...lol

Numbers do count…add the 20,000,000 to the 1,000,000 and even in percentage we would beat you…but only because we are free and have a lot more land than you do.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: The land of Hope and Opportunity ? - 9/25/2010 7:04:06 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Immigration isn't what made America great. Working hard made America great.



People work hard in a lot of countries... I do think a land of immigrants makes us great...people that pick up all they own and move hundreds if not thousands of miles to start a new life have something special in their character. …This character trait is now in the genes of their offspring…us.

This trait will eventually become polluted but for now it is still strong and vital.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to servantforuse)
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RE: The land of Hope and Opportunity ? - 9/25/2010 7:11:32 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Immigration isn't what made America great. Working hard made America great.



People work hard in a lot of countries... I do think a land of immigrants makes us great...people that pick up all they own and move hundreds if not thousands of miles to start a new life have something special in their character. …This character trait is now in the genes of their offspring…us.

This trait will eventually become polluted but for now it is still strong and vital.

Butch
People wotk hard most everywhere. Hell, in China they work 6 days a week, 12 hours a day, and live in company dorms, just to keep Wallyworld supplied with cheap shit for the spandex crowd.


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: The land of Hope and Opportunity ? - 9/25/2010 7:14:07 PM   
Aneirin


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Thank You.

That is it, America has more land available than the UK, we are kind of overpopulated now, but myself, I live on the edge of a city, well, it's called a city because it has a cathedral, but it is more like a large town in size, but where I live, it is rural with services to suit, ten minutes walk from the sea in two diections and similar for open countryside in other directions. In fact my home gets the blast from the Atlantic, from where I can see, the bearing taken, the next land mass is  possibly South America.

As to population, we average at over a thousand people per square mile, which is forecast to rise to over 1500 per square mile by 2056, great for taxation of peoples, but not great for people, we need our space. Rats in a trap comes to mind.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: The land of Hope and Opportunity ? - 9/25/2010 7:48:33 PM   
THELADY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Immigration isn't what made America great. Working hard made America great.


I agree. not all who came were a great success. many lived and died with out owning more than a few sticks of furniture. but they all did it under freedom. and anyone with a talent could get ahead.

that being said, I believe immigrants made the trapestry of this country great. but illigal alians are not immigrants. I don't blame them for wanting to come here. but there must be some kind of control.

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RE: The land of Hope and Opportunity ? - 9/25/2010 7:57:41 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: THELADY

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Immigration isn't what made America great. Working hard made America great.


I agree. not all who came were a great success. many lived and died with out owning more than a few sticks of furniture. but they all did it under freedom. and anyone with a talent could get ahead.


Hooray for Freedumb! I get to die in a gutter 'cause some hospital in LA decided they needed the bed space for paying people, and they dumped me on Wilshire BLVD, but hey! I died Freeeeeeeee! Is this a great Cunttry or what?

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: The land of Hope and Opportunity ? - 9/25/2010 10:19:03 PM   
Fellow


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Sure, there is always some opportunity. Speaking of the society as a whole we need to look at statistics.
Thinking of hope in the USA we need to consider social mobility.  Today the poor have very slim chance to advance financially. The probability to advance from 0-40% income levels to 60-100% range is around 3%.
http://www.businessinsider.com/15-charts-about-wealth-and-inequality-in-america-2010-4#despite-the-myth-of-social-mobility-poor-americans-have-a-slim-chance-of-rising-to-the-upper-middle-class-8

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RE: The land of Hope and Opportunity ? - 9/25/2010 10:22:39 PM   
AnimusRex


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Aneirin-
I understand as a citizen of the UK, you may not be intimately familiar with US history.

But the dolt you quoted- and yes, he is a dolt- is an educated man, and ostensibly has read a history book.

The America of the late 1800's was in no way shape or form "the most economically prosperous nation in the history of man!"

The 1890's was sarcastically called The Gilded Age, a term used to comment about the enormous private wealth that was accumulated by the robber barons who stifled free enterprise and acted like criminal cartels to monopolize industry and extort the consumer.

It was outrage over this vast inequality that lead to the Progressive Movement of the early 1900's; the lack of government regulation of meatpacking plants and food safety, for instance, led to the Food and Drug Act, the lack of worker safety and grinding sweatshop labor led to the surge in trade unions, and so on.

What you read was a thin and poorly crafted piece of propaganda, a shill for the Republican Party extremists who want to dismantle worker rights and the civil society that was created in the first half of the 20th Century, and return us to those glorious days when the rich ran government like their personal fiefdoms.

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RE: The land of Hope and Opportunity ? - 9/25/2010 10:39:44 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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Damn, Animus, next thing ya know is you'll be tellin' Anaerin to read all the puff pieces by Sinclair Lewis.

Seriously, workers falling into sausage vats and ground up with the pigs? Naaaaaw, could never happen. We got laws about that stuff. What? You say there weren't no laws about that back then? But 1890 America wuz frakkin' Nirvana! Sinclair wuz a liar!
It's a lie Negroes and Poor Whites wuz forced to work till they dropped to pay their debts to the Company Store!
"Sixteen tons, and whaddya get...
another day older and deeper in debt...

Nevermind, the kid knows everything there is to know about the Capitalist Paradise of America.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to AnimusRex)
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