CaringandReal
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Joined: 2/15/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bravado
I'm not so stupid as to believe that there are any "true slaves" among the privileged people in the world, so I expect that any sub will have some tangible needs and expectations. When they argue that they have no such needs and are ready to commit themselves to be permanent property, I wonder if they even realize that it is a lie.
You may not be aware of this, but this particular topic gets brought up once every week and a half or so, usually by a new participant (who isn't aware of the regular posting pattern involved with this subject) and also occasionally by someone who is here a lot but who feels strongly about it. I guess it is rather on the mind of the collective bdsm unconscious. ;) No matter, new things always come out of this discussion which are often quite useful--as well as the crap that the chompers of cynical popcorn live for. So I am happy to see it arise like a phoenix once again.
Legal slaves in the times in which they were common also had tangible needs and expectations and nobody with any common sense or observation skills would ever argue that they didn't. They were not machines. They got hungry, they needed food, shelter, medicine or rest when ill, etc. Saying that slaves do not have needs is a nonsensical denial of both their humanity and their mamalian nature. What distinguishes a slave from someone free is not their possession of needs, nor their denial or affirmation of such needs, nor even whether they get those needs met (as you may be aware, some "free" people are in terrible circumstances without even the power to end their lives to get rid of the pain and horror). There is zero contradicition between someone having needs and expectations and also being ready/willing to commit themselves to being permanent property. How could there be when expecting to become permanent property is itself an expectation, something which, according to your somewhat flawed definition, slaves never have? If someone who has expectations, desires, and needs regarding ownership becomes owned, then guess what? They are a slave with expectations, desires, and needs. Those things don't magically poof at the moment (or during the process) of their enslavement.
You may have met some really stupid "slaves" if you believe that silliness about being owned meaning having no desires. Or perhaps you have not ever met a real slave living in real ownership and therefore know very little about the actual conditions and mindset? Women or men who fantasize about being slaves or masters on a personal-ad site but have had no experience with this reality may have some very strange preconceptions about it, just as anybody very unfamiliar with something is liable to make some very naive assumptions at first. Another type you are likely to meet on kinky personal -d sites are people who have not owned successfully or who have not been enslaved by someone competent. Bothtend to be bitter and have strong opinions about the infeasibility of the institution (the thinking goes: If _I_ can't be a successful slave/master, than NOBODY ELSE can; underlying assumption: nobody else is better at me at anything!) So, if someone has not succeeded at something, does that by default make them an "expert" in the subject that they failed? I suggest you tell that to the people who administer the bar exams, medical exams, or CFA tests. They will be shocked and saddened by this great revelation! Or, if you prefer, try to start judging the information you take in by the quaility of the source. ;)
The distinction between someone enslaved and someone free is that the enslaved individual responds to the authority of their owner at all times (notice I didn't say "obey"--I said "responds"), an authority that, at times, but fewer than you might think, overrides their own personal intentions or desires. You could say the same is true for someone employed, but it is not. The employed person is absolutley free to quit their job at any time that they wish, and will usually do to if pressed too hard to do things that are against their nature. You spoke of expectations. Ok, here's an exception: someone who is enslaved fully does not have the employed person's particular expectation, that they can just "quit," even if they are required to do things that go against their needs, desires, or nature. A slave may expect that at many times they will not be required to do onerous things, but they will also know that there is no guarentee that they won't. They may run if their owner is too cruel or neglectful of their needs but they usually do not regard it like one would quitting a job: as a free decision. They call it "running away" thus acknowledging the ownership implicitly. Legally owned slaves ran away quite a bit, too, you know. That did not negate their slave status in the eyes of the state. And while a slave in a bdsm relationship knows that their owner doesn't have the legal sanction or law-enforcement resources to bring them back if they run, they might expect, if the ownership has been real, that they will, nonetheless, be brought back.
My former master had provisions for getting me back if I ever ran. I asked him once about this--it's one of those really essential questions you ought to ask someone before becoming a slave, and then see if you can live with the answer. A few other masters I've talked to who took their ownership seriously have had similar (although not identical) provisions. A slave, to me, knows that they are owned, knows that their owner regards them as property, knows that they are not allowed to leave unless they are freed, and knows that their owner will exercise every means to bring them backto their state of slavery if they try to exit without permission. And slaves that I have known need, crave, expect, and thrive on this reality.
Is anybody really ever enslaved? They can be regarded as such whether they think so or not, if they lived in a time and place where either legal slavery was sanctioned or the opportunity for bdsm slavery existed. You could say that slavery is only a mindset, nothing tangible, even in legally sactioned systems, and that a person could always buck the mindset and free themselves, but very few of the total number of legal slaves, who often had many reasons to do so, ever did . There are various reasons for this, from fear of painful reprisal and death to comfort and security:being used to one's position and place. But even if you were kept in chains 24/7 the option for escaping still existed, if you could figure out an angle. I think that a lot of slaves did not run away for a simple reason: they identified as slaves and could no longer think outside that point of view. Running wasn't an option they considered, even when things were quite bad.
Modern conditioning and propoganda works quite similarly: we get used to believing in a certain reality or in certain facts about ourselves or others or the world, and after a while we are no longer aware that this is propoganda, that we've been sold a story by something external to ourselves. Instead, people internalize the ideas they are bombarded with and, untimately, when the propoganda or programming is sucessful, they become our own thoughts.
This is also how sucessful bdsm slavery works, on the micro level. The dominant's intentions, desires for us, views of us, become interalized and we forget or lower the priority on our own ideas about ourselves. We eventually come to believe that the dominant's ideas about us are our own, and one of these ideas is, of course, that we are owned property with no rights other than those our owners give us. There is nothing inherently evil in this, in fact, it probably won't even be successful if you don't welcome it willingly. And it is a process that ranges from quite plesant, intoxicating even, to one you barely notice. If you do not like it and are fighting it constantly, it is less likely to be successful. Which may be why people conflicted about slavery do not make very good or long-lasting slaves. Butthose who thrive in this environment of extreme control, even over our thoughts, or expect it for our future, if we are unowned make excellent slaves.
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"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo
"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris
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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 
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It's not rocket science...really.... 
RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 
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