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RE: a hypothetical - 10/1/2010 4:12:03 PM   
littlewonder


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I'd pass and walk away from it all.

I'd rather be alone than be with someone I could not be in a long term relationship with.

(in reply to DomImus)
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RE: a hypothetical - 10/1/2010 4:54:12 PM   
Aynne88


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I don't think that it is even possible to mull this over as a hypothetical question Lally because human nature makes it so. People are not devoid of emotion, at least for the most part.

Contrary to what Malkinius says, most of the Dominant men I have encountered have been far more into seeking love than I have been, and they seem to be the ones seeking the relationships equally if not more so than submissive women.

I will say this if this were the case I would just do what I did when I found the man I am with now, seek out a very confident alpha dominant man that didn't call himself a "Dominant" or a "Master" and encourage that to part of him to develop. It did. :) With a vengeance I might add. *lucky me*~

edited for a spelling error~

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



(in reply to littlewonder)
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RE: a hypothetical - 10/1/2010 6:55:07 PM   
Acer49


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

if the accepted 'norm' for all Dominants was that they should be completely devoid of any human compassion for their submissve and that to be any other way would not be a true expression of DOMINANCE in this world of ours what would we as submissives do.

allowing for the fact that submissives require a degree of Dominance and BDSM and all else that makes us come here to these places in search for our counterparts - would Ds and Ms still thrive.

i know its hypothetical but its a thought prompted from another thread and the dozens or so similar to it that crop up from time to time.  that a slave or submissive isnt 'true' if they have any sort of choice or option before any relationship even begins or has any right to end it.

what if there were real auctions and we were sold like cattle - would we submit ourselves to that or would we pass, given as ive said, that we are here for the obvious reasons that Ds Ms and BDSM float us.  if there was no other option open to us, would we still be here.

and to the Dominants, would you prefer this to be the case, on some level - would you still be here.

to be honest im not sure that i would be, but then again, i suppose there would always be the hope that id land up with a kind, caring Master. 


I believe that having the ability to be compassionate is essential to the makeup of a successful dominant and human being. No, I would not wish to be void of such emotion as that is the difference of being human verses being a machine


_____________________________

Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey Fierstein

(in reply to lally2)
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RE: a hypothetical - 10/1/2010 7:05:45 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

Whether possible or hypothetical, there is not a chance in hell that I would choose to be in a dynamic where the person does not care for me and worse, is devoid of all human compassion for me and others.

I was in a situation that developed slowly into this once and I would rather die than ever engage in that again.

So to answer the question, I would be vanilla rather than choose an uncaring D/s dynamic.

Friend speaks my mind.
Besides, the right naturally Alpha 'vanilla' male might just be open to being 'corrupted'.... which could be fun!


_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
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(in reply to sexyred1)
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RE: a hypothetical - 10/2/2010 4:33:51 PM   
lally2


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thanks everyone for responding to my hypothetical situation and yes it was a bit daft and completely flawed, but spurred on a little by the recurring fantasies that seem to swell around the whole question of submission and submissives generally.  that our relationships are not real or genuine or true because we are there from choice rather than force.

it was great to see the guys who responded by pointing out the value of having a sub there because the sub wants to be there - and id agree completely.  this is after all real life and real relationships we're talking about, not fantasy fuel.

caringandreal brings up the question 'would the bidders be screened' and im going to say no - in the same way that DS pointed out that if he was to bid he'd need to know that he wasnt bidding for a brat.  niether would be screened.

i think in the end its an effort to explore the myth that anyone with dominant aspirations should be able to grap anyone with submissive aspirations and make that work.  after all, all 'true' subs and slaves would surely bend to all dominant will and all who aspire to dominance should be free to express that in any way they choose with whomever they choose to do it with.  the internet fantasy is the ultimate flaw i think.

to some degree or another it goes on all over the place.  my cmail has its token offerings fuelled by fantasy and overbearing dominant passive aggressives pretty much every day.

Lady Pacts post was really interesting, about how the old methods and approach used to be very much along those lines and that its only fairly recently that love and affection has crept in.  it makes me think therefore, that if i, as a sub had come here and found that to be the accepted norm, after a period of bucking and putting my ears back, i would have settled in to it.  which surprises me and wasnt my initial thought to start with.

anyway, thanks again to those who joined in on this, i appreciate youre time and thoughts spent on it. xx

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to WyldHrt)
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RE: a hypothetical - 10/2/2010 4:51:13 PM   
LadyRian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
i know its hypothetical but its a thought prompted from another thread and the dozens or so similar to it that crop up from time to time.  that a slave or submissive isnt 'true' if they have any sort of choice or option before any relationship even begins or has any right to end it.

what if there were real auctions and we were sold like cattle - would we submit ourselves to that or would we pass, given as ive said, that we are here for the obvious reasons that Ds Ms and BDSM float us.  if there was no other option open to us, would we still be here.

and to the Dominants, would you prefer this to be the case, on some level - would you still be here.





If this were the case, no. I'd be gone.
The sub always has the right to  choice, as far as I'm concerned. I don't find choice to be adverse to submission, far from it.

I want one who's submission to me is by his own choice based on his well considered decision to do so. And in order to make that well considered decision, we'd need to get to know each other,  see who we are, like who we are, and want to be together. A  submissive who's a partner,  and knows he's his own, strong person, is to me, the most attractive of all.

A slave auction can be a hot fantasy, but if it were the ruling paradigm, I think I'd become an abolitionist.


_____________________________

"Dodging bullets since 2010"

(in reply to lally2)
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RE: a hypothetical - 10/2/2010 5:05:01 PM   
lally2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyRian

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
i know its hypothetical but its a thought prompted from another thread and the dozens or so similar to it that crop up from time to time.  that a slave or submissive isnt 'true' if they have any sort of choice or option before any relationship even begins or has any right to end it.

what if there were real auctions and we were sold like cattle - would we submit ourselves to that or would we pass, given as ive said, that we are here for the obvious reasons that Ds Ms and BDSM float us.  if there was no other option open to us, would we still be here.

and to the Dominants, would you prefer this to be the case, on some level - would you still be here.





If this were the case, no. I'd be gone.
The sub always has the right to  choice, as far as I'm concerned. I don't find choice to be adverse to submission, far from it.

I want one who's submission to me is by his own choice based on his well considered decision to do so. And in order to make that well considered decision, we'd need to get to know each other,  see who we are, like who we are, and want to be together. A  submissive who's a partner,  and knows he's his own, strong person, is to me, the most attractive of all.

A slave auction can be a hot fantasy, but if it were the ruling paradigm, I think I'd become an abolitionist.



... and this is the critical difference that makes this BDSM, Ds and Ms and nothing at all, whatsoever to do with the slave trade of unwilling and unwitting victims.

the hot fantasy of an auction i think in reality would be a total lottery on both sides and in my opinion would prove itself to be unworkable (unless directed by Lady P of course ) - it would go back to the good old days of 'frog kissing' eventually.

ok, well i guess we keep going as we are then

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to LadyRian)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: a hypothetical - 10/3/2010 9:22:58 AM   
DesFIP


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Compartmentalize. Have a good relationship with a vanilla and get your kink only needs met in a dungeon.

Without human emotion, I'd need to know there was a DM since I couldn't trust the top to stop if he was without empathy or any kind of caring.


_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to DomImus)
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RE: a hypothetical - 10/3/2010 9:38:38 AM   
LadyRian


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I'm prepared to kiss more than a few frogs as the search continues. However, my seeeekrit laboratories are working on  developing an amazing new amphibian proof lip gloss, which will reduce the slime factor by a minimum of at least 67%.  

_____________________________

"Dodging bullets since 2010"

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: a hypothetical - 10/3/2010 12:07:39 PM   
jujubeeMB


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Joined: 1/8/2010
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The uncaring Dom who got a hold of me in this imaginary world would be in for a pretty sorry surprise when he discovered that I wasn't submissive at all without emotion/affection playing a key role. If I had a choice, I'd go without sex for the rest of my life. If I had no choice (forced slavery) I would start an underground movement to end the slavery.

What's the point of life without love? Orgasms aren't that good.

(in reply to LadyRian)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: a hypothetical - 10/3/2010 4:16:31 PM   
Twoshoes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

[*~Inspirational words~>]
If I had no choice (forced slavery) I would start an underground movement to end the slavery.


Does this mean wearing berrets and interrogating people?


(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: a hypothetical - 10/3/2010 4:30:14 PM   
leadership527


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To some extent Lally, I can't help but feel that I've encouraged this business about "true slaves don't have a choice" thing in my writings about choice & consent insofar as Carol and I.

I'm certainly in the camp of "we didn't choose this". I certainly believe that between Carol and I, concepts like choice and consent have little meaning and even less pragmatic usage. But honestly, that's largely becaue we ran into BDSM 12 years into a marriage in which we were already dom and sub. The "choice", as it were, happened subconsciously and long ago. Carol did, in fact, size me up as a potential mate. The fact that she didn't know she was sizing me up as her owner doesn't change anything. In her gut, she knew what she was, what she needed, and apparently, how to select for that.

Any "slave" I was interested in would have no real choice about being "submissive" just as Carol does not. But they would still have a very real choice about how far to allow that to go WITH ME. And even that doesn't make Carol any "truer" than anyone else. It just means that my own personal assessment is that a personality type like Carol's would be required to submit (in ways I care about) in a healthy fashion.

In the end, I hold firmly by my assessment that there is no such thing as a "true" this or that. There are only good partners and not. I'm way in favor of anyone being a wonderful partner for the person they claim to love. It is things like personal strength, integrity, honesty, etc. that make that happen... not some sort of "trueness".

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: a hypothetical - 10/3/2010 6:12:02 PM   
Twoshoes


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Jeff, I wouldn't say so. It's pretty clear from your posts that you and Carol love and need each other and everything stems from that.

To respond to the topic:
I'll admit I can willingly emotionally dissociate myself from situations and people. (If you are sensitive and male, you eventually learn how to hide it very well.)  The first things I wanted to control in my life are my own emotions and my own body. That means being aware of how I feel and using my own emotional triggers to direct myself into whatever mood I want to be in.

However, I don't see how that ability would make me a "true" Dominant. It seems to be more of a fantasy, because I have to limit myself to moods which make my reactions appear cold.

Plus, you'd have to be really bad at paying attention to not notice I'm empathetic, because I'd have to be hide the thoughtful and strange things I do every day.

This does lead to the question: "Could you be empathetic towards everyone else and show no emotion towards a particular person?".Well, I could, especially if the person wanted that. However, I believe it's easier to like all of me, than part of me, so I don't see how I'd ever meet anyone who'd want only that.

Perhaps the men who you are referring to are giving you a fantasy? Frankly, every time I've made myself emotionally distant was due to not wanting to get hurt as opposed being 'Dominant'. I have more influence on people who care about all of me, anyway.

If we're talking about 'unsympathetic' for make-believe purposes, my favourite line from of a school play was:
"I'll feed on your tears."
(That's before I thought about D/s.)

< Message edited by Twoshoes -- 10/3/2010 7:06:45 PM >

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: a hypothetical - 10/4/2010 2:47:21 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

if the accepted 'norm' for all Dominants was that they should be completely devoid of any human compassion for their submissve and that to be any other way would not be a true expression of DOMINANCE in this world of ours what would we as submissives do.

allowing for the fact that submissives require a degree of Dominance and BDSM and all else that makes us come here to these places in search for our counterparts - would Ds and Ms still thrive.

i know its hypothetical but its a thought prompted from another thread and the dozens or so similar to it that crop up from time to time.  that a slave or submissive isnt 'true' if they have any sort of choice or option before any relationship even begins or has any right to end it.

what if there were real auctions and we were sold like cattle - would we submit ourselves to that or would we pass, given as ive said, that we are here for the obvious reasons that Ds Ms and BDSM float us.  if there was no other option open to us, would we still be here.

and to the Dominants, would you prefer this to be the case, on some level - would you still be here.
For the biggest part...say 98%...I wouldn't be.  I am a loving person and I want my partner in D/s to be someone who loves me and expects it from me in return.  The other 2% of me...given the problems inherent in any relationship when love comes into the picture...likes to fantasize about what it would be like to be able to buy the submissive or slave of my choosing through a reputable broker, have her come to love me and know that I love her but know that she's going to stay because she knows that she has been bought and there is no other choice.  Takes the vagaries and the heartache out.  BUT...and here is where the 98% comes back in...I want someone who stays because they want to, NOT because they have no choice but to stay since they are owned.

quote:

to be honest im not sure that i would be, but then again, i suppose there would always be the hope that id land up with a kind, caring Master. 
It's always fun to stretch the mind and see what directions it goes in so I see no problem with putting this in a hypothetical context so long as people understand that in a hypothetical context, your mind is going to go in directions that it cannot go when the laws and circumstances that exist are put onto your thought train as a qualifier.  Sort of like those authors who sit down and figure out who is murdered, how and why, and how it is solved.  No restrictions placed on where their thoughts can go...

(in reply to lally2)
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RE: a hypothetical - 10/4/2010 4:50:12 PM   
NuevaVida


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Devoid of human emotion describes a sociopath.  I've already had a relationship like that.  Not interested in another one.

I don't worry though, about what others think is true or not.  I know myself, and I know my relationship works for both of us.  What others think (true or not true) doesn't matter to me.

I've also been in an M/s relationship in which I was merely seen as human property and not cared about all that much.  It worked for me at the time.  It wouldn't work for me now.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: a hypothetical - 10/5/2010 9:04:13 AM   
IronBear


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A couple of things come to mined here. The use of REAL and TRUE is far too overworked these days and this has devalued the original meaning of the words. However I tend to feel that many who post and either claim this and that isn't real or true together with many who belittle those who do use real and true in a statement to describe their situation are perhaps being annal. Outside where the trueness and reality can be proven empirically, I would argue that what is true and real for one person may not be for another which is no reason to decry the trueness or realness of someone else's reality. We are after all islands drifting a rather large ocean called life.

Back to relationship dynamics. as far as I am concerned every sub/slave has choices and consequences. he or she can leave at any time unless they are illegally held captive. Some consequences may prove too hard for some not to agree with a directive. After all is it really worth placing the relationship at risk by refusing to pee in a bucket under a spotlight because the Dom/master wants to watch? I think not. Conversely, dissolving the relationship is far better then living in fear.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to NuevaVida)
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