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Vaccines - 10/23/2010 8:40:11 AM

pahunkboy

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Here we go.

Some are needed- some are not. Right? Wrong? Why?

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RE: Vaccines - 10/23/2010 8:55:49 AM

FullCircle

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Why this obsession with vaccines?

Some aid the immune system in the vulnerable, some are overly relied on.

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RE: Vaccines - 10/23/2010 9:34:13 AM

angelikaJ

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There are some things that everyone is "vulnerable" to.
Tetanus for example.

The problem with the microbes that we get vaccinated for is that sometimes the microbes don't cause direct damage.
However, the toxins (aka poisons) produced by the microbes cause a lot of damage... .
Tetanus toxin along with Diptheria toxin are one of the 3 most poisonous things known to man (the other is Botulism).
Diptheria is also something we are vaccinated for as kids and our immunity wanes as we get older. We need a booster.
Tetanus requires regular boosters.

The damage from Whooping Cough is caused by 4 different toxins.

Women who want to become pregnant are vaccinated against German Measles AKA Rubella because women who contract it during their pregnancy within the first 20 weeks... it leads to multiple serious birth defects.

Even healthy people in developed countries die from measles (around 3/1000).
In under-developed countries that rate is over 20%.

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RE: Vaccines - 10/23/2010 10:08:43 AM

DomKen

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There is presently an outbreak of pertussis in California that has killed 10 people this year. Pertussis is very easily controlled through vaccination.

9 of the 10 people killed by pertussis this year are babies too young to be vaccinated. They caught the disease from being exposed to older persons, usually caregivers, who had pertussis. If those caregivers had been properly vaccinated then those 9 babies would have never been exposed to the bacteria and would still be alive. It is just that simple.

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RE: Vaccines - 10/23/2010 10:32:50 AM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

There is presently an outbreak of pertussis in California that has killed 10 people this year. Pertussis is very easily controlled through vaccination.

9 of the 10 people killed by pertussis this year are babies too young to be vaccinated. They caught the disease from being exposed to older persons, usually caregivers, who had pertussis. If those caregivers had been properly vaccinated then those 9 babies would have never been exposed to the bacteria and would still be alive. It is just that simple.

I see being a fully vaccinated adult as part of my responsibility to the community. I don't want to pass on anything that would be minor for me but possibly fatal for someone else.

However, to be fair to the caregivers, it may be possible that since they were adults their doctors dropped the ball on determining their vaccination status and didn't discuss it with them.

How many of us have been told by our physicians that a diptheria booster is a good idea?

When I worked as a home health-care giver I had to argue with my physician to give me an MMR booster when there had been a massive college outbreak of measles among previously vaccinated kids. As it turned out the vaccine they were given was at fault.
I was working with children periodically and did not want to take that risk.

edit: spelling

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 10/23/2010 10:33:49 AM >

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RE: Vaccines - 10/23/2010 12:21:34 PM

DesFIP

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If a sufficient number of the populace do not become vaccinated, then everyone is at risk for the disease. Enough people get it and you have a pandemic or even an epidemic. If enough people get it, then those few who don't will usually be protected by herd immunity.

Tell me, how many people confined to respirators from polio is sufficient for you to advise people to vaccinate their children?
Or lifelong sterility in males from mumps?
Or birth defects from German Measles?

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RE: Vaccines - 10/23/2010 12:28:25 PM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

If a sufficient number of the populace do not become vaccinated, then everyone is at risk for the disease. Enough people get it and you have a pandemic or even an epidemic. If enough people get it, then those few who don't will usually be protected by herd immunity.

Tell me, how many people confined to respirators from polio is sufficient for you to advise people to vaccinate their children?
Or lifelong sterility in males from mumps?
Or birth defects from German Measles?

IF you read me as being anti-vaccine, Des, then you misread my post.

What I said was that if adult caregivers weren't vaccinated then it was possible their physicians never raised the issue with them.
They were probably not fully vaccinated as children and were also been unaware of the danger of being an unvaccinated adult.

edit: clarity

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 10/23/2010 12:30:07 PM >

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RE: Vaccines - 10/23/2010 3:47:16 PM

DamnPickyDomme

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the current fears about vaccinations are going to lead to more people refusing vaccinations and more of the vulnerable dying when they are exposed to the illnesses we are attempting to control. i see no sense in risking a return of some of the most deadly diseases known to mankind because you think you might be the one in a million to suffer side effects. there are those who argue the vaccines cause autism or who knows what. given the extreme amount of crap in our air, water and food, how the hell does anyone think you can pin the blame only on vaccines? hello, we've been vaccinating for how many decades? and it's only within the last 20 years or so autism has become such a big issue? i think there's a few more likely culprits, or combinations of suspected substances that may be to blame.

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RE: Vaccines - 10/23/2010 3:58:48 PM

hausboy

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pahunkboy:

You've tossed a topic into the ring: is there a particular motivation why you've asked? I work in public health, so there's my bias up front: vaccines have virtually eliminated certain diseases from our population--diseases that have killed thousands and thousands (particularly children) previously. It doesn't mean that the bacteria and/or virus has disappeared--the bugs are still around--but people don't get sick because they've been successfully vaccinated.

We now see a return of certain diseases that could have been prevented had the parents vaccinated their children. The amount of myth and misconceptions about vaccines is prevalent and ignorance kills more lives as a result. I understand those who have religious reasons why they do not vaccinate. I feel strongly about the topic but that's not the intent of your post, so I won't share my views here.

If you'd like to read more on the vaccines--both the science, history and myths/truths, I suggest the link below:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/spec-grps/parents.htm#purpose

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RE: Vaccines - 10/23/2010 4:16:46 PM

COINT

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as police officer with paramedic training, I get all my shots. My risk of vaccine induced injury way undercuts my risk of getting infected with something nasty...period.

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RE: Vaccines - 10/23/2010 5:26:58 PM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

If a sufficient number of the populace do not become vaccinated, then everyone is at risk for the disease. Enough people get it and you have a pandemic or even an epidemic. If enough people get it, then those few who don't will usually be protected by herd immunity.

Tell me, how many people confined to respirators from polio is sufficient for you to advise people to vaccinate their children?
Or lifelong sterility in males from mumps?
Or birth defects from German Measles?

IF you read me as being anti-vaccine, Des, then you misread my post.

What I said was that if adult caregivers weren't vaccinated then it was possible their physicians never raised the issue with them.
They were probably not fully vaccinated as children and were also been unaware of the danger of being an unvaccinated adult.

edit: clarity

Sorry Angelika, I meant this to the OP.

It isn't just children that are at risk. You know anybody whose undergone chemo in the last five years? Their odds of contracting a fatal illness is on a par with babies under three and over three months.

Anybody with an immune system disorder who may be on immune system suppressants or large amounts of steroids? But you wouldn't know that they had it because the meds would be suppressing symptoms. You will discover this when it's your unvaccinated child that gives them pertussis. I think that killing someone by not letting your kid be vaccinated and still letting them wander around the community without telling parents in their class or playmates' parents would earn a major payoff from most juries.

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RE: Vaccines - 10/23/2010 6:35:06 PM

hausboy

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absolutely! not only that..... but when you look at diseases such as polio, that were very pervasive in my father's generation--courtesy of Dr. Salk, we've seen polio essentially eradicated from the U.S. , sparing millions of children the anguish of that disease. Most public schools now require proof of vaccination before they will even permit a child to enroll. It frustrates me when parents refuse to vaccinate their children because they don't "believe" in vaccines.

I can introduce them to some parents who had to bury a child this year. They didn't believe in vaccines either. Now they help us educate other parents--there are so many pediatric deaths that are preventable--vaccines are definitely one way to reduce the risk.

As COINT said--the protective benefits of a vaccine greatly outweighs the relatively low risks of complications.

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RE: Vaccines - 10/23/2010 9:35:48 PM

littlewonder

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I feel that these people who do not get their children and themselves vaccinated are not only putting their children at risk but everyone else. We're now starting to see diseases and illnesses on the rise that we thought were almost obliterated only to find that those who believe in conspiracies and New Agers refused to do what was necessary to keep these from coming back.

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RE: Vaccines - 10/24/2010 4:30:12 AM

subkatslut

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I think this is one of those things you have to do what you feel is best for your child and your family.

I do think many vaccines bring about harm and complications to many people who receive them. The problem is how does one prove it when it's often attributed to other things. I've known too many moms who had a healthy baby until their child received a vaccine and suffered damage.

I also believe there is a happy medium and that the schedules recommended should be changed instead of inundating tiny little bodies all at once.

Right or wrong? You know I'm a parent and when it comes to MY children I take the facts, add in my gut and make the best decision I can. I would never take that right away from someone else even if it goes against what I believe or think.

I may be part of a society but my kids, to put it bluntly, are more important. I am responsible first and foremost to them.

I also think one of the things they fail to mention when these outbreaks occur is that many of the kids/people were vaccinated. That it was the vaccine that failed not a result of a massive amount of unvaccinated people.

For me it boils down to risk. The risks the vaccine may hold versus the risk getting the actual disease will bring in terms of long term damage or death. Many people died or became disabled prior to vaccines because we didn't have the ability to treat the diseases. Nowadays that is not the case. Yeah it sucks getting sick but better that then having complications from a vaccine for something that you may never encounter.

< Message edited by subkatslut -- 10/24/2010 4:42:45 AM >

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RE: Vaccines - 10/24/2010 6:38:12 AM

DomKen

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To be blunt you're wrong on every point you raise.

Vaccines do very little harm. Unless you have purposefully sought out parents of children harmed by vaccinations you do not know many moms of children damaged by vaccines.

If you had the actual facts instead of lies and superstition you would noy hesitate in getting your children fully vaccinated. Schedules don't need to be changed, ask the parents of those 9 babies dead from pertussis if they think delaying that vaccine is a good idea.

Your children are not more important than everyone elses children. If your children aren't vaccinated they may not die from some vaccine prevenatble illness but they make it more likely that a child who cannot be vaccinated, for legitmate reasons such as allegies to vaccine components, will be exposed to the illness and possibly die.

Actually no outbreak of vaccine preventabel disease has ever been traced to people whose vaccinations have failed. The present pertussis outbreak is illustrative, the disease is primarily spreading child to child amongst children not vaccinated. Adults who are around newborns are being given booster shots just in case there vaccinations have failed not because such failure is widespread or common.

For most of the diseases prevented by vaccines the rate of death and serious complications remains exactly the same as it wa prior to the avialibility of the vaccine. for instance there remains no treatment for polio at all. Pertussis still kills about 1 out of every 100 children who get it.

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RE: Vaccines - 10/24/2010 8:42:00 AM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subkatslut

For me it boils down to risk. The risks the vaccine may hold versus the risk getting the actual disease will bring in terms of long term damage or death. Many people died or became disabled prior to vaccines because we didn't have the ability to treat the diseases. Nowadays that is not the case. Yeah it sucks getting sick but better that then having complications from a vaccine for something that you may never encounter.

We can't treat everything.

Those babies weren't saved.

Do you know what happens when someone contracts polio?
You probably wouldn't; the last cases of polio in this country from "wild virus" were detected 31 years ago. Maintaining the vaccination schedule for that is what keeps us polio free.

30% of children who recover after contracting Haemophilus influenzae meningitis or Hib (the mortality of treated infections is less than 10%) have residual neurological effects.

It is treatable with antibiotics, but resistant strains are becoming more common.

Tetanus: even though it is a form of bacteria, antibiotics won't cure it. By the time you show symptoms, the toxin has done it's job.
As mentioned earlier, it is one of the 3 most poisonous substances known to man.
The mortality rate is very high.

Btw, my past observation has been that disease detectives are very careful in their investigations, and when people are vaccinated and get sick anyway, an announcement is made, so that those who are unknowingly unprotected can be revaccinated.

That is how I learned I may have fallen into the group of people whose measles vaccine wasn't effective, and since I worked with kids, requested one...just in case.

In your decision making process, have you actually looked at the mortality rates for each disease, and also seen which illnesses are treatable? And do you consider that your unvaccinated kid could pass on something to someone else's child or an adult who perhaps may not be so lucky?

edit spelling

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 10/24/2010 9:19:25 AM >

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RE: Vaccines - 10/24/2010 9:16:51 AM

tazzygirl

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Whooping cough was well controlled... now we hear of 10 babies dying... thats not how many contracted it, but how many died from it.

My only question for you, subkat....

Who are you going to blame when its your child who dies?

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RE: Vaccines - 10/24/2010 9:54:36 AM

DesFIP

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You might recover somewhat from polio. Lets say you don't need a respirator for the rest of your life immediately. But in your 50s or 60s something called post polio syndrome occurs. And there you are, back in an iron lung. Or back in the wheelchair you gave up at 16.

Both my mother and mother in law had polio. Both suffered complications later in life. Really want that for your kids? But of course you won't be around to see what your refusal to vaccinate them caused.

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RE: Vaccines - 10/24/2010 1:43:29 PM

subkatslut

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Well first of all I never stated that *I* personally don't have my kids vaccinated. The only vaccine my children did not receive was the chicken pox vaccine.

What I did state was that as a parent what is right or wrong shouldn't be determined by what others think is right or wrong and if through their own research and experience they choose a different path they are entitled and shouldn't be condemned for decisions they make in regard to their family.

I probably shouldn't have jumped into this conversation because I don't have the time or desire to revisit a topic I once had tons of links for merely showing that there truly are 2 sides to this. For that I apologize.

And to DomKen actually I do know quite a few moms who've had children damaged by vaccines. I didn't seek them out though. I simply belong to a local group of moms possessing over 5000 members. I've met some of them in real life and often watched conversations with genuine interest and amazement. Over time I've realized not all of it can be discounted or chocked up to "misinformation".

Plus there is a huge difference between a vaccine say for polio versus one for chicken pox or even the measles or mumps.

There are several alternative schedules for vaccinations out there and even though most babies/kids do fine with the aggressive all in one shot one some simply do not. For parents who are worried about that I do see it as a viable alternative. I even think it's been modified or parts of it have been recently.

Also DomKen my children ARE more important to ME. I don't think you'll encounter many parents who will say well I worry about other children more then my own. Or I will sacrifice my baby for the greater good. That's ridiculous.

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RE: Vaccines - 10/24/2010 2:22:51 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subkatslut
And to DomKen actually I do know quite a few moms who've had children damaged by vaccines. I didn't seek them out though. I simply belong to a local group of moms possessing over 5000 members. I've met some of them in real life and often watched conversations with genuine interest and amazement. Over time I've realized not all of it can be discounted or chocked up to "misinformation".

Unless this group is a nationwide group of people with children injured by vaccines then you still haven't met many parents with chidlren injured by vaccines. out of 5000 moms the odds are good that none had a child with serious complications from vaccinations, they really are that rare.

For instance the MMR vaccine has a serious side effect rate of less than 1 in 1 million doses (each mom has more than 200 kids?)

you can even look here and see that even with free reporting of even coincidental symptoms the rate of issues is miniscule:
http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/data/

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