RE: Choice As A Slave (Full Version)

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CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/16/2010 4:55:50 PM)

quote:

Now the choice may ultimately come down to either obeying or choosing to leave the relationship, but that is a choice in a consensual Master/slave relationship.


I agree that there is a choice. I know that, as one of the people who has been on both sides of the kneel because of the requirements of the protocols under which our household runs, I faced the choices of the slave every single day while I was in service. To me, though, it's much more subtle than just an "obey or leave" situation. You see, in that space, the real choice is rarely to obey or to walk away -- the -real- choice is an internal process... To serve wholly, and with grace, or to fight the process and live in resentment and misery. The choice comes complete with its own punishment. If one cannot bring oneself to embrace one's journey in service, then one suffers and finds little joy, and how hard is it to live a life in which one can find little or no joy?

Calla




daddysprop247 -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/16/2010 5:11:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

-- the -real- choice is an internal process... To serve wholly, and with grace, or to fight the process and live in resentment and misery. The choice comes complete with its own punishment. If one cannot bring oneself to embrace one's journey in service, then one suffers and finds little joy, and how hard is it to live a life in which one can find little or no joy?

Calla




very well said Calla...and a wonderful example of an internal process we may not always recognize to be a "choice." but you are right, in the end it certainly is. perhaps the most significant part of my growth as a slave was finally accepting that 1. suffering is not a slavely virtue; and 2. by choosing to properly focus and "let go" psychologically, i can give my whole self without succumbing to martyrdom.





barelynangel -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/16/2010 5:40:42 PM)

One thing people should be aware of is not everyone becomes a slave or are slaves to men because they are all gung ho about serving others or being a servant or obeying etc.  I know i didn't.  I was a slave simply because his will was such i could only be what naturally compelled me.  The slavery in which i was kept was based on his determinations as to how i existed in his life.  It wasn't based on some internal desire i had to serve him, there were many days i gladly would have told him to get his own damn drink or dictated to him and would have been perfectly content.  However, his mastery and his will didn't "allow" me to live by my dictates but by his and his alone. 

I think many times people think of slaves as ultra submissives who live to serve, and i think this many times forms a misconception as to what a slave is.   While there are ultra submissive slaves, there are also very dominant in personality slaves who aren't slaves based upon their submissiveness in general but because they have found a Will stronger than their own.  grins, even as a slave i was never ultra submissive or even a concept of being a submissive person in general.  However, my reactions to his mastery and his will allowed him to have me exist in his life as he determined.

I also think many people who are saying women always have a choice are people who don't understand mastery or the strength of the bond which can hold a woman because of his mastery.   I know this concept scares people so its easier to say ohhh you do have a choice.  Just because a woman can't leave doesn't mean its a BAD thing.  For someone like me it IS a GOOD thing.  I need the man's hold, i need his strength in maintaining the relationship.  I being a woman who did exist in this type of relationship, i really would appreciate people who DON'T know what it is to make the not being able to leave into some big bad concept.  And do NOT ignorantly throw around words like abusers and abusive.  It only allows misconceptions and fear to stain something that is actually very beautiful within the concept as a whole.

angel



NuevaVida -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/16/2010 7:38:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW


I agree that there is a choice. I know that, as one of the people who has been on both sides of the kneel because of the requirements of the protocols under which our household runs, I faced the choices of the slave every single day while I was in service. To me, though, it's much more subtle than just an "obey or leave" situation. You see, in that space, the real choice is rarely to obey or to walk away -- the -real- choice is an internal process... To serve wholly, and with grace, or to fight the process and live in resentment and misery. The choice comes complete with its own punishment. If one cannot bring oneself to embrace one's journey in service, then one suffers and finds little joy, and how hard is it to live a life in which one can find little or no joy?

Calla




I faced that myself, once.  Obey or live a life with little joy.  Still, in that place, I chose to live the life with little joy.  It's what I felt, in my core, my only option was.

It was only in retrospect, with much distance in place, that I could finally understand that I chose it, even if at some subconscious or otherwise unseen level.  I chose to give up my ability to choose, and that, in and of itself, was a choice.  In retrospect, I can see I chose to believe I had no choice.

Wow, how twisted is that?  [8D]



Icarys -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/16/2010 8:12:55 PM)

quote:


I faced that myself, once. Obey or live a life with little joy. Still, in that place, I chose to live the life with little joy. It's what I felt, in my core, my only option was.

It was only in retrospect, with much distance in place, that I could finally understand that I chose it, even if at some subconscious or otherwise unseen level. I chose to give up my ability to choose, and that, in and of itself, was a choice. In retrospect, I can see I chose to believe I had no choice.

Wow, how twisted is that?


That pretty much throws down the "You haven't experienced it so that's why you can't understand", crowd.

It's so blatantly easy to understand.

I think a lot of people have a hard time dealing with the idea that they have choices because they want to believe in the romantic part..They need to feel like they are "trapped" in some way to serve and get into the mindset of a slave.


Like I've said, I believe in internal enslavement but it's with a slight twist. She has but one choice. She can choose to obey and do as I ask or she can choose to be with someone else. I don't say this with fists clenched or heart hardened but in a logical and rational and loving way. Submission is one of the reasons she would be with me...I wouldn't expect her to stay with me if I were abusive.

She only has that one choice to make..the choice to be with me or not to be. All other decisions are made by me.

This is never in the forefront of any of my relationships but it is something that most of us know instinctively must happen in order to make the relationship work.




barelynangel -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/17/2010 4:31:55 AM)

Chuckles, so you have it all figured out.  People crack me up, they are so focused on this "choice" concept because they are terrified of anything else, they simply can't see that the concept may not be a choice but a reaction or simply a natural connection between two people where choice is not necessary.  They ALWAYS see not being able to leave as a BAD thing that they MUST somehow rectify in their minds.  It was never about choice, not for me and not for many others who have lived it.  It was simply part of their lives.  That you, Icarys, and others keep wanting to make it about choice, shows to me a concept of fear based necessity that you have to make your own worries into everyone elses.

That's what these threads always come down to, people making THEIR worries, fears, insecurities, etc into everyone elses so they try and tell people exactly what transpired WITHOUT knowledge and usually understanding.  People always want to see this concept being spoke of about not being able to leave as a BAD thing, (and its not always about leaving its anything else that people make into some bad concept in their minds and need to rationalize it into some kind of choice or okism) but what the people who do this don't get is, concepts of slavery that some people live within is NOT for all people.  So the concept of choice doesn't play into it for those that do on many levels.  But i do find those that it scares or a fear factor or politically correct concept gone bad type of idea, are always people who need to rationalize it for those who have lived it. 

I have often said this concept if needing to define choice and consensuality many times makes these relationships a lot more complicated than they need to be or are on the reality and actuality level.

The fact so many people make not being able to leave a BAD thing, causes people to NEED to make sure they have safe guards of the relationship in place because god forbid they find they don't have a choice.  They see it as a negative and therefore, they need to rationalize it and make it "okay,"   For many people, that simply isn't necessary.  AND THAT, is what i mean when i say until someone experiences it, they don't understand it. 

Yes, for some it is a choice that they either actively or unconsciously make, for others its simply their lives wherein its not a bad thing and its not about choices.  Some people like compartments and understandings as to why they did/do things, others simply live their lives and allow the cards to fall as they may.


angel



favesclava -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/17/2010 4:47:36 AM)

you really nailed it. i try to explain this to people and they just dont get it. i'm not submissive. i'm submissive to Him because He's stronger than me.i didnt have a choice to be his slave. i dont have a choice on being released. He will never ever take the collar off and i will never remove it myself.
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangeli

One thing people should be aware of is not everyone becomes a slave or are slaves to men because they are all gung ho about serving others or being a servant or obeying etc.  I know i didn't.  I was a slave simply because his will was such i could only be what naturally compelled me.  The slavery in which i was kept was based on his determinations as to how i existed in his life.  It wasn't based on some internal desire i had to serve him, there were many days i gladly would have told him to get his own damn drink or dictated to him and would have been perfectly content.  However, his mastery and his will didn't "allow" me to live by my dictates but by his and his alone. 

I think many times people think of slaves as ultra submissives who live to serve, and i think this many times forms a misconception as to what a slave is.   While there are ultra submissive slaves, there are also very dominant in personality slaves who aren't slaves based upon their submissiveness in general but because they have found a Will stronger than their own.  grins, even as a slave i was never ultra submissive or even a concept of being a submissive person in general.  However, my reactions to his mastery and his will allowed him to have me exist in his life as he determined.

I also think many people who are saying women always have a choice are people who don't understand mastery or the strength of the bond which can hold a woman because of his mastery.   I know this concept scares people so its easier to say ohhh you do have a choice.  Just because a woman can't leave doesn't mean its a BAD thing.  For someone like me it IS a GOOD thing.  I need the man's hold, i need his strength in maintaining the relationship.  I being a woman who did exist in this type of relationship, i really would appreciate people who DON'T know what it is to make the not being able to leave into some big bad concept.  And do NOT ignorantly throw around words like abusers and abusive.  It only allows misconceptions and fear to stain something that is actually very beautiful within the concept as a whole.

angel




Icarys -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/17/2010 6:33:02 AM)

Yes, chuckles, I do have it figured out(I know what your attempting to do here but it won't work on me). What really cracks me up are people that delude themselves into seeing this as anything other than choice.

Every single action we take in life as humans are made up of a continuous long line of choices strung together till the day we die. Including but not limited to all the choices it takes to get up put one foot in front of the other, open the fridge door, make a decisions of what to eat and get something to eat, shit, love, hate, mock, drive a car, shop and fuck, a million other things. Anyone who can't grasp that idea as truth are people who refuse to see it for one reason or another for themselves.

Just because someone isn't self-aware enough to realize a subconscious choice or one that's made so fast that it's thought and forgotten in the blink of an eye doesn't mean it doesn't happen. If you resign yourself to a situation, you have made a choice.

I know, I know...We watered down the idea of choice and we say things like.." The girl was going to be hurt...I didn't have a choice I had to step in" and so on and so on. Society has accepted this no choice thing to justify things in their lives...It just isn't so, you must make choices in order to do everything.

I don't expect anyone who believes what you believe to see it as truth. Why would you? You haven't up to this point.



Icarys -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/17/2010 6:35:14 AM)

quote:

you really nailed it. i try to explain this to people and they just dont get it. i'm not submissive. i'm submissive to Him because He's stronger than me.i didnt have a choice to be his slave. i dont have a choice on being released. He will never ever take the collar off and i will never remove it myself.

Wrong.
Wrong.
Choice.
Choice.



Elisabella -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/17/2010 7:34:09 AM)

quote:

Every single action we take in life as humans are made up of a continuous long line of choices strung together till the day we die. Including but not limited to all the choices it takes to get up put one foot in front of the other, open the fridge door, make a decisions of what to eat and get something to eat, shit, love, hate, mock, drive a car, shop and fuck, a million other things. Anyone who can't grasp that idea as truth are people who refuse to see it for one reason or another for themselves.


Amen to that.

When people say "I don't have a choice" what they really mean is "the opposite choice is unthinkable for me" and that's entirely different.



NuevaVida -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/17/2010 7:44:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Yes, for some it is a choice that they either actively or unconsciously make, for others its simply their lives wherein its not a bad thing and its not about choices.  Some people like compartments and understandings as to why they did/do things, others simply live their lives and allow the cards to fall as they may.


angel


Well first, I don't see not feeling you are able to leave as a bad thing, necessarily.  But, having gone through years of "allowing the cards fall as they may," I have chosen to live my life differently now, and become an active participant in where it goes, rather than simply letting life happen to me.  It's not about compartments for me, it's about being involved in the outcome of my life.

However, whether one is an active participant or lets life fall where it falls, - that in and of itself is a choice.

But it's human nature to reject concepts that go against what one fundamentally believes.  I get that.  Having lived and experienced both sides of this argument (for lack of a better word), I understand the belief that it's not a choice.  I've been there.  I just don't believe it anymore.

And I'm not here to try to change anyone's mind about it.  I just happen to enjoy posting my own perspective, on topics that are interesting to me.  You can agree or disagree, it doesn't affect my world.  No idea why you think believing in choice is fear driven.  It's not.  It's self-awareness driven.



AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/17/2010 9:06:35 AM)

FR

Part of the issue is that people use the term slavery to mean different things. To some it is about choosing to obey. For others (and me), the moment you are making choices you are not a slave (as I mean it) but are controlling yourself. For me, being a slave is not a choice. I think of it as an autonomic response. If someone puffs talcum powder under your nose, you don't CHOOSE to sneeze, you just do. To me that is what mastery is- being able to get someone to respond to you the way you want them to. To others it is someone ordering you and you choosing to obey. When I talk about being mastered I mean that, as barelynangel says, I respond to who and what he is. Either how I respond is what he intended or not, but I simply respond as myself. Do I have choices? Yes! The ones he allows me to make- and ones he can decide himself at any time. What do I want for dinner? Do I want to go to the movies? I even get to choose what I wear most days- within his guidelines. But those kind of choices are not self determining choices, they aren't choices like shall I do what he wants or do what I want? They are only choices within what he allows. But I don't choose to obey or choose to be a slave. I don't choose to stay. I'm compelled to stay because I need to stay. I didn't choose to surrender to him- it happened to me before I was aware I had. Can I choose to leave? Of course I can (incidentally, manumission -buying oneself out of slavery- was a part of several legal slave systems in history). But the moment I can choose that (and stay away rather than come skulking back, lol), I am no longer a slave because I have become master of myself at that point. So are there things that would cause me to become unmastered? Sure. People have listed them- murder, abuse, and other things.

well wishes,
anna



Iholdthestrings -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/17/2010 9:24:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

Every single action we take in life as humans are made up of a continuous long line of choices strung together till the day we die. Including but not limited to all the choices it takes to get up put one foot in front of the other, open the fridge door, make a decisions of what to eat and get something to eat, shit, love, hate, mock, drive a car, shop and fuck, a million other things. Anyone who can't grasp that idea as truth are people who refuse to see it for one reason or another for themselves.


Amen to that.

When people say "I don't have a choice" what they really mean is "the opposite choice is unthinkable for me" and that's entirely different.


THIS. Even if my choices are limited to negative outcomes I still have a choice. I just don't have a choice that offers me anything I like. And sometimes, it's not about the choice I make in the moment, but the choice I made that led to having the moment in the first place.

It's called personal responsibility. And just for the heck of it, I'll go deeper than that.

Even in the event of a horrific auto accident - where I am hurt or possibly killed because of the negligence of another driver - I still made the choice to get in my car, to start the engine, and to drive down that road. I didn't set the other car in motion; I don't control the other driver. I didn't choose to die, but my death was dependent on the choice I made.

(edited to add: Even "allowing the cards fall as they may" is a choice. It's a choice of acceptance.)



Icarys -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/17/2010 9:26:56 AM)

That's beautiful sentiment, Anna. We aren't autonomic unless you are referring to breathing which of course works in tandem with the conscious mind. I definitely could agree with the connection then.

I've said in the past and I think it bares repeating. I do believe a person can condition themselves or be conditioned to become a certain way...either with their conscious help and or by way of the subconscious mind. In a lot of ways inside of My relationships they don't have a choice. After a while they believe they don't as well. It's simply them deferring to me though on the many things I choose to take over. I don't ask if it's okay nor do I talk about it in most cases. If I do it's because I want to discuss it or get feedback. All this is of course after I've gotten the initial "they are mine" answer..Which isn't always talked about either.

Logically this is still choice, emotionally this of course is seen differently..The problem with the latter is it's not based in facts but desire. It's a beautiful lie but it's a lie all the same. One you tell yourself...sometimes though I understand the desire to take logic out of the equation.



daddysprop247 -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/17/2010 10:07:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys



She only has that one choice to make..the choice to be with me or not to be. All other decisions are made by me.



greetings Icarys,

while i recognize the many choices i continue to make even as a slave (to be good or not, to serve with grace or not, to keep myself open or not), that is one choice which i could not handle. psychologically, emotionally...i just would not be able to tolerate the burden or the power of such a choice. i need to know that i am there because he keeps me there...not because i have "chosen" to stay. i also need to know that even if a time comes when i seriously and truly do NOT want to be there...still, he will keep me there (if he wants me of course). this is what gives me most of my security as a slave. without it i would feel lost and untethered.

it's a faith thing really...(strange coming from an agnostic maybe, but oh well)...i need to know that he is God. the Supreme Being, as far as my little world is concerned. i wouldn't have the strength to tolerate a life without my God.



Icarys -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/17/2010 10:28:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys



She only has that one choice to make..the choice to be with me or not to be. All other decisions are made by me.



greetings Icarys,

while i recognize the many choices i continue to make even as a slave (to be good or not, to serve with grace or not, to keep myself open or not), that is one choice which i could not handle. psychologically, emotionally...i just would not be able to tolerate the burden or the power of such a choice. i need to know that i am there because he keeps me there...not because i have "chosen" to stay. i also need to know that even if a time comes when i seriously and truly do NOT want to be there...still, he will keep me there (if he wants me of course). this is what gives me most of my security as a slave. without it i would feel lost and untethered.

it's a faith thing really...(strange coming from an agnostic maybe, but oh well)...i need to know that he is God. the Supreme Being, as far as my little world is concerned. i wouldn't have the strength to tolerate a life without my God.


The choice I spoke about isn't always asked..It may be unspoken as well but it's still there, all be it stuffed way back in a persons head.

I would find it hard on a personal level to hold someone that didn't want to be there in the larger sense. I may tell them they aren't going anywhere but if if asked enough times, I won't hold them.

Not that you would do or are doing this but I've seen that in more than a few people as testing their chains. Since I look for someone who embraces their slavehood with completely open arms and is stilled in who they are, I find it hard to want to be with anyone otherwise.

Now if the day comes where a female can legally be bound to me as a slave and she's recognized as property with all the "honorable legal intentions" that marriage has to me then maybe yes. Till then I'll choose the initial consent deal and try as close as I can come to it out of love.



AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/17/2010 12:46:19 PM)

Greetings Sir,

Perhaps it's just a matter of semantics. It may not be literally part of the autonomic system like breathing or sneezing, however there are things that humans don't really control- or perhaps some control more than others. But things like falling in love, feeling angry, or sad are often not choices. Many people simply respond to their surroundings, people, events etc. and feel how they feel. There probably are some who choose not to feel these things, but perhaps a slave type is less able to, who knows? There probably hasn't been a scientific study on that yet ;) But responding to a man as a slave, can be very much not a choice but a response like an emotional response- sometimes one is unaware one is even doing it.... until it is too late- and then you're like, damn how did that happen?!

Well wishes,
anna



porcelaine -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/17/2010 1:02:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

while i recognize the many choices i continue to make even as a slave (to be good or not, to serve with grace or not, to keep myself open or not), that is one choice which i could not handle. psychologically, emotionally...i just would not be able to tolerate the burden or the power of such a choice. i need to know that i am there because he keeps me there...not because i have "chosen" to stay. i also need to know that even if a time comes when i seriously and truly do NOT want to be there...still, he will keep me there (if he wants me of course). this is what gives me most of my security as a slave. without it i would feel lost and untethered.

it's a faith thing really...(strange coming from an agnostic maybe, but oh well)...i need to know that he is God. the Supreme Being, as far as my little world is concerned. i wouldn't have the strength to tolerate a life without my God.


Greetings daddysprop,

You've eloquently articulated the things I've been wrestling with internally as of late. And even though I may seek to close my eyes to what is true, it's difficult to ignore it when the words find themselves to you through another party. For that I thank you immensely. Much as you've stated it is a testament of faith -one that defies logic- but is inherently real for the individual besieged with the thoughts and feelings you've expressed. Although I'm aware of the conscious level of choice in some respects, I believe it goes beyond that and solidly rests upon the fact that He's chosen me more than the reverse. It is because of that and the strength of His will that I remain, not simply due to my own desires or selfishness. And in the moments when I think or wish to be elsewhere I count on (and silently pray) He'll pull me closer and won't allow me to wander off instead. In many respects I see it as a blessed helplessness.

Namaste,

~porcelaine



Icarys -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/17/2010 2:17:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

Greetings Sir,

Perhaps it's just a matter of semantics. It may not be literally part of the autonomic system like breathing or sneezing, however there are things that humans don't really control- or perhaps some control more than others. But things like falling in love, feeling angry, or sad are often not choices. Many people simply respond to their surroundings, people, events etc. and feel how they feel. There probably are some who choose not to feel these things, but perhaps a slave type is less able to, who knows? There probably hasn't been a scientific study on that yet ;) But responding to a man as a slave, can be very much not a choice but a response like an emotional response- sometimes one is unaware one is even doing it.... until it is too late- and then you're like, damn how did that happen?!

Well wishes,
anna

Well maybe you've hit on something here, Anna.

Logically, no this is all about choices at the very core no matter the person.
Emotionally, maybe because (this may come off as a negative) a person has trouble fighting or controlling their emotions to a point where they either can't break free or don't want to break free.

All of those things you've mentioned are controllable, though.

As for the science of it all, I believe that has been studied a great deal. Maybe not in the context of a M/s relationship.



DesFIP -> RE: Choice As A Slave (11/17/2010 2:24:48 PM)

Anytime some dominant announces he makes every single choice, I can't help but wonder how he has that much time in his day. "Master, may I have ketchup with my french fries" "You may have exactly one and a half teaspoons, no more or less". If you're so insecure you need to control everything outside you to this degree, it says to me you don't feel in control of yourself. Because people who are sure of themselves don't go crazy trying to control the rest of the world obsessively..



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