RE: BDSM and Pagans (Full Version)

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smile2cu -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (10/26/2004 10:41:37 AM)

Thanks for the references. The Avatarsearch one in particular was most helpful. I ended up at a UK Wicca site, http://www.thewiccantree.co.uk/what/principals.htm Aside from the terminology, I found little to disagree with.

In particular, the idea that what is sometimes called supernatural is actually part of the natural world has long been one of my beliefs. I'd have phrased it differently, of course: "Since God shaped the world according to His/Her/It's will, why would there be a need to go outside of the the laws He/She/It laid down?" But we get to the same point.

I certainly agree "We value sex as pleasure, as the symbol and embodiment of life, and as one of the sources of energies used in magickal practice and religious worship." The Judeo-Christian tradition sometimes forgets that the first words out of God's mouth to humans was "Be fruitful, and multiply." In other words, have sex. I don't forget.[sm=lol.gif]

So thanks again. I'll keep reading.




Morghan -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (10/26/2004 12:35:42 PM)

FWIW, I feel Wicca is like the Catholicism of pagan faiths. Its highly structured and has a lot of documentation to refer to. You can find a hundred books on rituals, tools, paths, groups, etc. Personally I'm eclectic pagan, and try to be quite flexible in my beleifs. I'm as happy worshipping the great spirit as I am praying to Baphoment to find me a slave :)

I do find that many, many pagans are in the scene, and scifi circles. Open minded folks in general tend to flock to these social crowds. It is those who take personal responsibility for their relationship wtih the divine as well as their relationships with humans who are IMO, most likely to find their way to the lifestyle. Those who take doctrine and accept it blindly are more likely to end up in traditional relationships. Some of those however, can look a lot like D/s if one takes the terminology and trappings away.

Morghan

quote:

ORIGINAL: smile2cu

quote:

ORIGINAL: srahfox
There is so many differnt forms of paganism it's mind boggleing. I have called myself Wiccan in the past but I'm really not, it's just the closest thing.
My mom was in Mensa, she said it was the most boring thing she ever did. She went to on meeting and they just sat around talking about how smart they were :)

My Mensa experience was different. While I was growing up, I knew that I somehow didn't quite fit in with most kids, but didn't quite know why. I was fortunate to join a chapter of Mensa that had mostly unpretentious people in it, and suddenly I was with kindred spirits. Leading them was interesting: kind of like leading cats. You don't so much tell them what to do, as try and see what they really want to do and go along![sm=lol.gif]
I can certainly see though, that a pretentious group would be boring as hell. I've since moved, and quit.

Do you think Wiccan be a good place to start looking into pagan forms? Or is there a more general starting place to learn? It occurred to me that I know quite a bit about many other religions, but almost nothing in this area, I'm sorry to say.





srahfox -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (10/26/2004 2:20:02 PM)

That whole catholicism of paganism thing is why I was never big on bucklands big blue book. To much you gotta do this, then you hafta do that. It's really all a tool to get the same thing done.




Suleiman -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (10/26/2004 2:57:46 PM)

Erm... it's easy to get into labels, and this sort of labelling has started many a flame war on other lists. However, this isn't a room full of hypersensitive wiccanoids (most of whom have no experience outside of lighting a few candles and reading a few books, which is a great place to start and a great way to live, but dosen't really count as experience or knowledge), so I'm going to weigh in with a comment here...

Wicca has some peculiarities to it which stem from the Gardnerian tradition which established the religion. Many sects have broken away from the Gardnerian mold (and many of these claim to be "older", in spite of being offshoots of the Gardnerian path), but there are a few things to keep in mind about wicca.

Despite what any number of people would have you believe, it is not an old religion. It was founded less than a century and a half ago, based on a fragmentary mishmash of folk tradition and fable. It began as a form of "secret society", much as the Rosicrucians, Golden Dawn, and other occult orders.

There is a direct literary tradition, going back many centuries, which attempts to unify all of the pagan religions of bronze age europe into one monolithic cult. This tradition eventually led to two seminal works, "Witch Cults in Modern Europe", which claimed to have found evidence of modern pagan practices in the folk traditions of various isolated villages throughout europe, and of course "The Golden Bough", which was for it's day what Joseph Campbell is to us. This literary tradition seriously influenced Gardner, and is an underlying tenet of wicca.

The ritual trappings for wicca, the cup, wand, blade, et cetra, as well as the tradition of casting the circle and calling the quarters, is taken from traditional, christian hermetic ritual. Thanks to the Golden Bough and similar reference materials, these trappings were given the pagan stam of approval because, for instance, the altar of Hecate was always adorned with a knife, which must therefore be the prototypical athame, thus the athame is an ancient tradition of witchcraft. Hecate was the goddess of, among other things, midwives, and the knife attributed to her was emblematic of the one used to cut the umbilicus. The symbolism works for some uses of the athame, but that does not make it an athame.

Because the victorians were lovers of pomp, ceremony, and elaborate mystery ritual, the early founders of wicca were obligated to fill their carefully researched faith with ritual and mystery. Whenever possible, they drew from reputable (for the time) academic sources for how a certian thing was done (but keep in mind that, at the time, the malleus malificarum was considered veritable, which is where the basic initiation ceremony comes from, as do some aspects of the great rite), but when in doubt, they were quite willing to add a few more levels of ceremony. It was, for them, a means of heightening the ritual itself, and absolutely mandatory for the suspension of disbelief. To us, it's a lot of unnessesary brou-ha-ha. What a difference a century makes.

There are other, non-wiccans (we call them "episcopagans") who insist on elaborate pomp and ceremony. It's a lot of fun. I can't be bothered with it, but then I can't be bothered with the catholic mass, either. I know that the mass has a special place for some people and fills a particular need, but I get bored and fidgety after about five minutes.

Personally, I'm not very religious. I figure the gods are out there, and if I yell at them, they'll hear me, but that still leaves me on my own to solve my own problems. Religion is, to my mind, mostly ceremony, which fills a certain need, and community, which I get elsewhere. The rest is the art of storytelling, taken to its highest degree. We tell stories in order to make sense of the insensible, and to give meaning to our lives, which are often filled with large voids of meaninglessness. I have faith, which gives me comfort, and I have philosophy, which helps me to live my life and gives me something to argue about, but mostly I just live.




afmvdp -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (10/26/2004 4:53:26 PM)

ahh...glad to see someone else on here who knows their seperation of the esoteric religions. Me personally, I've never had the same attatchment to the european works as I have to the middle eastern ones. As a avid kabbalist and practioner of the goetia, gemantria, enochian, and summerian (akkadian) arts.




Suleiman -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (10/26/2004 6:02:37 PM)

On an academic level, I adore many of the same areas, but I also enjoy hedge witchery and folk magic (and being the bookish sort that I am, I find myself obligated to research the traditions from which the folklore is derived). I'm also very fond of folklore and mythology in general, and studying magical and religious traditions gives me a vehicle for understanding the legends that I encounter.

Honestly I don't really practice all that much any more, so I'm really just an armchair occultist, but on the internet, I am still a gawd of esoterica compared to many with whom I have crossed words. (The sad thing is I really don't consider myself all that knowledgeable, so that gives me a pretty low opinion of the other person in the argument)




sleepydoll -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (11/17/2004 10:19:45 AM)

My spiritual beliefs are not part of my sexual life but I will say this.. I know more pagans than I do Christians and it A/all goes hand in hand. Tis life.[image][/image]

Life is like a bowl of cherrys, you just gotta spit out the pits...ClancyMonteleone 1922-1997




saris -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (11/21/2004 9:50:58 AM)

This one recently spent a weekend at a pagan event and was surprised to see other livestylers there. And here it thought the event was just another vanilla gathering :). This slave never really thought itself pagan, in fact, it never really aligned itself with any religion. Since going to that pagan event, it sort of slipped into the pagan community :)

This one was also curious about just how many pagan lifestylers there are out there




Suleiman -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (11/24/2004 2:35:13 AM)

A lot, honey, at least out here in california. Most of the folks I know in the BDSM scene are also part of the pagan crowd. I know there's a non-pagan scene out there, it's just kind of invisible to me for the most part. Not every paganoid is into leather, but it's that whole spirit of open-minded acceptance and experimentation (as long as you openmindedly agree to what everybody else says and does. Damn non-conformists keep expecting everybody to think and act alike!), any way a lot of folks in the pagan community are more likely to be "out" about being involved in the scene, since their pagan friends are often in the same boat with the mundanes that they are with the vanilla (or their gay friends are with the straights. We all have our little names for "them", don't we?)




ShadeDiva -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (11/28/2004 6:55:26 PM)

Pagan.

~ShadeDiva




LadyShoshin -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (11/28/2004 10:35:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: saris

This one recently spent a weekend at a pagan event and was surprised to see other livestylers there. And here it thought the event was just another vanilla gathering :). This slave never really thought itself pagan, in fact, it never really aligned itself with any religion. Since going to that pagan event, it sort of slipped into the pagan community :)

This one was also curious about just how many pagan lifestylers there are out there


A lot here in Ontario too, pagans, neopagans, wiccans, solitary practioners, shamanic believers and more, plus throw in crossovers (like me, a shamanic Wiccan). Society For Creative Anachronism, Renaissance Faire followers all have their share of lifestylers.




Nvernilla -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (11/30/2004 2:59:34 PM)

Well this Dom is 90% Celtic Wiccan and 10% Wakan Tanka devotee, is that Pagan? Its mainly a way to pay homage to Mother Earth and our fellow beings on this quite wild ride. There are many pathways to the same place essentially, the combination of our Mind/Body/Environment is a wonderous and Magickal gift, the use of which is clearly explained in books called " Programming and Meta Programming the Human Bio Computer " and "Wicca For The Solitary Practitioner" I feel the high percentage occours from the way both the Earth religions and bdsm are so shunned by manistream society, it makes it a natural, joint pathway, Blissed Be< not a typo, a concept...Mike




esclava -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (12/1/2004 5:01:48 PM)

I am pagan as well. I practice Santeria. I dont believe my preference for bdsm is in anyway related to my spiritual beliefs. I do believe that those of us that have deprogrammed ourselves from thinking that we must conform sexually are more inclined to also conform to traditional religious beliefs. Just a thought.

submissive esclava




Nvernilla -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (12/2/2004 10:18:37 AM)

I once was a catholic but my recovery is coming along nicely now. I'd like to know why Rasta's are considered Pagans when they use the Bible? Gould it be that christianity has become a form of mind comtroll and programming? Hmmmm is that s real poncho or is that a sears poncho?...Mike




yonnachanna -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (12/5/2004 6:06:11 PM)

i define myself as Wiccan, yet not in the sense strict structures. while the pagan community in Lawrence, KS isn't large, it varies completely. the closest thing to common ground, is an interest in gaming, anime, and martial arts (none of which are me)....some, including myself have Egyptian deities, some have Celtic, some none at all...basically, we come together to discuss anything, drink, and hold ritual 8 times a year...
and then the part that isn't discussed, except when drunk....i had been somewhat concerned w/ how they would react to my being submissive, but the reaction was basically, "we already knew"....turns out, about half the group has at least participated on some level....




iwillserveu -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (12/8/2004 5:16:55 PM)

Just curious, how many here are into BDSM and are Lutherans?[:)]




iwillserveu -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (12/8/2004 5:21:13 PM)

Just FYI, I'm an atheist. I'd tell you what Lady Beckett is but she'd be upset with my defining her religious beliefs.[:)]

("You mean I'm not a goddess?"[:D])




slave2Bruce -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (2/2/2007 12:08:48 PM)

    i don't have a label for myself, but believe a mix of shamanism, witchcraft & vodou.  i incorporate all into my life through journeying, animal guides, drumming, visualization, dancing & praying to the lwa, the God & Goddess & the elements, and a bit of candle magik.  i will be setting up an altar in the prayer room i am working on, which will also be a combination of all, but primarily vodou.  Spontaneous prayer (eg. safety while driving, etc) is mainly directed to "Mother," "Goddess", or a specific Erzulie that i connect with. i am always learning new things & growing in my spiritual beliefs and hate to limit myself with one. 




Vendaval -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (2/2/2007 2:19:00 PM)

Another Pagan Domme here with a few definitions -
 
Pagan - from the Latin, "pagani" from the country,
            specifically, someone NOT a Jew, Christian or Muslim
 
Wiccan - a pagan who follows one of the European 
             traditions, frequently Celtic or Norse or 
             the Classical Greco/Roman Pantheon
 
Heathen - meaning "from the heath", a country dweller


                       




smilingjaguar -> RE: BDSM and Pagans (6/21/2007 10:21:24 AM)

Eclectic shamanic pagan with an agnostic master.  I've always combined pain and sex in my sacred activities, so it only seemed a natural jump to BDSM.

As for why there are so many, it only seems natural that people willing to step out of society's box in one area of their life are more apt to make that step in other areas as well.




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