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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/19/2010 11:03:55 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


Interesting choice you propose there. In human terms it looks like:

(a) Continue the face the "challenges" (at an annual cost of tens of thousands of deaths, both US and non-US citizens) AND continue to let additional tens of thousands of your own people die because of inadequate health care; or

(b) Let the rest of the world take care of itself and the US can take care of its own citizens.

Whilst I am far from convinced these are the only options available, I am pretty sure I can guess which option the rest of the world would prefer. Option (b) would ensure tens of thousands of people, both inside and outside the USA, would live not die.

Sounds like win-win to me.



You are naive if you think the rest of the world would like the US not to fight their battles for them...As an example today... NATO has decided they want a missile defense shield...OK who do you think will pay for the lions share of the cost... provide the expertice...materials...and man the facilities?

Not using option B my friend

Hey I've an idea... lets tax NATO for the defense shield and we can use the money to pay for health care

Butch



Who is being naïve here?

Probably me as much as anyone else, but ...


You nor I would be posting here, nor would we be taking advantage of of a number of actually useful and productive things were it not for international trade. The complexity of both material goods and the services to accomplish distribution of such requires specialization beyond what any one country could obtain or render on its own.

Rather than say "naïve" we might more properly say that it is impossible for any one person to see the entire picture all by him/herself.

Do you think that NATO is some politically distant observer on world affairs that takes upon itself the task of actively defending the rights of nations to self determination, or might it be the case that that all the think tanks that actually inform NATO policy are extensions of the armaments manufacturers?  Good on you if you answered "B". Indeed we should tax NATO, and quite heavily, being that as the only way to get some slight refund on all the tax dollars sent to the arms industry in the first place. 

The situation is not that NATO is requesting some "service" that only the US has the capacity to render, but that the armaments manufactures in the UK, France, US, Germany, Russia, China,  et. al. are happy to have this facade in place to keep the ball rolling.

Just to throw another wrench into the paradigm here, a UK-owned company is the largest defense contractor for the US.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Whilst I am far from convinced these are the only options available, I am pretty sure I can guess which option the rest of the world would prefer. Option (b) would ensure tens of thousands of people, both inside and outside the USA, would live not die.

Sounds like win-win to me.





Excellent observation, if you can take it beyond the current situation and understand the historical context.



Any reading of history is in fact a reading of  "super powers behaving badly,"  and the UK would be an excellent source of study in that venture.








< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/19/2010 11:10:33 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/19/2010 11:37:40 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
Do you mean China threatening to collect its debt?


They are?

Really?


You mean China -threatening- to stop flooding the FX market with renminbi and artificially propping up the dollar to enhance their export advantage thereby?


- Oh, the shuddering and cowering at such a notion - ...  


PS

BTW, the Chinese collect their debt, as do all other US T-bill holders,  every 4 weeks, 13 weeks, 26 weeks, and 52 weeks, no threat needed. They renew faithfully.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/20/2010 12:03:51 AM >

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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/20/2010 12:06:06 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


Interesting choice you propose there. In human terms it looks like:

(a) Continue the face the "challenges" (at an annual cost of tens of thousands of deaths, both US and non-US citizens) AND continue to let additional tens of thousands of your own people die because of inadequate health care; or

(b) Let the rest of the world take care of itself and the US can take care of its own citizens.

Whilst I am far from convinced these are the only options available, I am pretty sure I can guess which option the rest of the world would prefer. Option (b) would ensure tens of thousands of people, both inside and outside the USA, would live not die.

Sounds like win-win to me.



You are naive if you think the rest of the world would like the US not to fight their battles for them...As an example today... NATO has decided they want a missile defense shield...OK who do you think will pay for the lions share of the cost... provide the expertice...materials...and man the facilities?

Not using option B my friend

Hey I've an idea... lets tax NATO for the defense shield and we can use the money to pay for health care

Butch



This began with you posing the question:
"I'm not sure America can afford universal healthcare..at least without abdicating its status as a world power. If we were to pull a few hundred billion from defense we could afford it...but do we want to do that NOW with the challenges we face on the world scene?" (my emphasis)

And now it's:
"You are naive if you think the rest of the world would like the US not to fight their battles for them." (my emphasis)

There's some sleek slippage there.

Sorry, the real wars that are happening today (Iraq & Afghanistan) are not 'our' wars - they are US's.

Sorry, it's not 'our' health system it's the US one. And it's not 'our' citizens who are dying by the tens of thousands due to institutional neglect - it's American citizens.

And it's not anti-Americanism. I find myself in the odd position of expressing more concern about your less advantaged citizens than you do.

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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/20/2010 1:34:55 AM   
Edwynn


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One would be advised to look at the UN's "p-5" and the armaments industry in general before looking at the designated point man.

The US is the face of it at the moment. 

European powers starved, persecuted, tortured, and life-imprisoned their own countrymen, and caused indescribable suffering for others around the globe before they got even the first clue. The better social system existing there now was obtained by centuries of harsh lessons.

The same old financiers and gun makers are still there, in all the old places. They've just turned to the latest best outlet for the enterprise is all.

The US as "protector of the world at the expense of their own citizens" would be more accurately described as "protector of the European established paradigm of protecting arms manufactures and their financiers at expense of their own citizens and needless suffering of others in remote lands."


Heck no we can't afford any semblance of real health coverage. We've got too many British and French and US armaments industries to support.


Thanks for leading us to where we are today.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/20/2010 2:19:31 AM >

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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/20/2010 5:58:27 AM   
allthatjaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
Do you mean China threatening to collect its debt?


They are?

Really?


You mean China -threatening- to stop flooding the FX market with renminbi and artificially propping up the dollar to enhance their export advantage thereby?


- Oh, the shuddering and cowering at such a notion - ...  


PS

BTW, the Chinese collect their debt, as do all other US T-bill holders,  every 4 weeks, 13 weeks, 26 weeks, and 52 weeks, no threat needed. They renew faithfully.



quote:

renminbi


I was talking about the debt that China is buying from America. China is buying up American debt at frightening speed.

I would of thought that the Chinese have heard the rumor that the US banks are writing off billions of debt related losses. American debt is a suckers bet and so why do the Chinese keep buying it? I don’t believe its because they are stupid but more to do with their interest of global political power.

There is every possibility of a wholesale default on the treasury security that China has invested in. What’s going to happen then?

China and several other countries, who hold absolutely no regard for a democratic society, now hold the mortgage and there is every possibility of a wholesale default on the treasury security that China has and still is investing in.
What’s going to happen then?




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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/20/2010 7:16:29 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

You nor I would be posting here, nor would we be taking advantage of of a number of actually useful and productive things were it not for international trade. The complexity of both material goods and the services to accomplish distribution of such requires specialization beyond what any one country could obtain or render on its own.



You misunderstand me...First your statement above is not correct in all circumstances. The US is perfectly capable of standing completely on its own and needs no specialization from any other country. Granted we are the exception but there are other countries in this world that would get along just fine with their own resources. But more to my point I believe all countries should first become self reliant...not depending on expertise, or resources outside of their borders. Their population numbers should reflect their resources. Then and only then should they export their excess goods and services to the world.

Too often governments allow their citizens labor and resources to be taken by other countries without contributing to their own economies.

For the rest of your post you just agreed with me … The US should get out of the world policemen’s role and mind its own business. Let the western world scramble to defend themselves. If they don’t want to fine they will live with the consequences.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/20/2010 7:26:04 AM >

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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/20/2010 7:25:08 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Sorry, the real wars that are happening today (Iraq & Afghanistan) are not 'our' wars - they are US's.

Sorry, it's not 'our' health system it's the US one. And it's not 'our' citizens who are dying by the tens of thousands due to institutional neglect - it's American citizens.



Please bless me by telling me what country you are from so I may properly get on my knees and worship your superior governing.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/20/2010 9:57:49 AM   
allthatjaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub



You misunderstand me...First your statement above is not correct in all circumstances. The US is perfectly capable of standing completely on its own and needs no specialization from any other country. Granted we are the exception but there are other countries in this world that would get along just fine with their own resources. But more to my point I believe all countries should first become self reliant...not depending on expertise, or resources outside of their borders. Their population numbers should reflect their resources. Then and only then should they export their excess goods and services to the world.



I would be interested to understand how you believe that you could realistically do this and still live in the modern world you have become accustomed to?

http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/hardinge-henry_are-we-self-sufficient.html


quote:



For the rest of your post you just agreed with me … The US should get out of the world policemen’s role and mind its own business. Let the western world scramble to defend themselves. If they don’t want to fine they will live with the consequences.

Butch


Are you saying that we should end NATO? The damage done in Iraq has made NATO a very shaky alliance and only Washington can restore the political character of that. Perhaps we should of left you to it. At least then we wouldn't also be suffering from the massive loss of life of our troops.
ideas only survive because they are supported by people who believe in them.




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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/20/2010 10:15:12 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz


I would be interested to understand how you believe that you could realistically do this and still live in the modern world you have become accustomed to?

http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/hardinge-henry_are-we-self-sufficient.html




I like chicory myself…I consider Canada part of the US so no worry about oil…and who needs soap

quote:



Are you saying that we should end NATO? The damage done in Iraq has made NATO a very shaky alliance and only Washington can restore the political character of that. Perhaps we should of left you to it. At least then we wouldn't also be suffering from the massive loss of life of our troops.
ideas only survive because they are supported by people who believe in them.




Yes dump NATO they do nothing but drain our money.. they are perfectly capable of spending money for defense...they don't need our help. The UN as well...total waste of expensive real estate in New York.

I’ll bet you think I sound fanatical …but to me I am telling you the future as I see it right or wrong. The UN will collapse and the US will remove itself from NATO…just a matter of time.

Of course I know the days of total isolationism are gone…too bad…It is time for western Europe to take control of their own future and defense. I am tired of hearing them complain as our boys and girls die for them.


Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/20/2010 10:29:05 AM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: World comparison shows U.S. healthcare lacking - 11/20/2010 10:32:32 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


Nothing wrong with the US system but tell it how it is.

My view is that the US moving to a European style system is not a good thing - a spread of ideas is healthy. Although those Americans not covered might not agree....still......


A 1997 study cited earlier in the thread (post # 33) concluded "that almost 100,000 people died in the United States each year because of lack of needed care—three times the number of people who died of AIDs."

Doesn't this suggest that there's at least c100, 000 things wrong with the US system to you?



It would be useful to see the exact cause/s of such deaths. But for every hole you pick in the US system you'll find an upside.

It's a philsophical debate - they tend to be at one end of the spectrum - continental Europe tends to be at the other end - and we tend to reside somewhere in the middle. There ain't no cast iron guarantees with these things - just different ways of doing things. I personally don't agree with their system - but then I ain't some buddhist sat on a rock spreading knowledge that transcends earthly wisdom. Just my view.

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RE: World comparison shows U.S. healthcare lacking - 11/20/2010 10:38:01 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


It's a philsophical debate - they tend to be at one end of the spectrum - continental Europe tends to be at the other end - and we tend to reside somewhere in the middle. There ain't no cast iron guarantees with these things - just different ways of doing things. I personally don't agree with their system - but then I ain't some buddhist sat on a rock spreading knowledge that transcends earthly wisdom. Just my view.


And a very good one NorthernGent...I think I will try to adopt it myself... I am far too defensive about the US and find myself defending warts and all at times.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/20/2010 12:22:58 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

It is time for western Europe to take control of their own future and defense. I am tired of hearing them complain as our boys and girls die for them.


Butch




I am tired of hearing them complain too, but not because our boys and girls are dying for -them-, but because of the ignorance involved in their own complicity in the affair.

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

I would of thought that the Chinese have heard the rumor that the US banks are writing off billions of debt related losses. American debt is a suckers bet and so why do the Chinese keep buying it? I don’t believe its because they are stupid but more to do with their interest of global political power. 




Interesting thought. We should all consider ourselves enlightened if you would expound on the mechanism and strategy at play here, and specifically the connection between a supposed US debt default and Chinese advantage of political power.

As regards the sucker's bet, that would be the poor folks that bought Goldman Sachs' CDOs, backed by the full faith and credit of the US Treasury Bail-out System. Except that the system only backed Goldman, sorry about the suckers.

You are conflating government debt and private debt, in the first place, and then seem to be unaware that the recent upswings in share price of bank stocks are in relation to a record low. Bank of America share price is about half of book value. Nobody is being fooled here (though they certainly were until recently).

If you want to know the truth, the US government debt is in service of Goldman Sachs, the UK's BAE Systems, Lockheed Martin, France's  The Thales Group, etc. None of them are going to turn that spigot off anytime soon by allowing any default to happen.


Whether the masses know it or not, the Chinese know exactly who they are dealing with here, it being the case that they are in competition with the western powers as to who can shovel armaments to Africa the fastest.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/20/2010 12:34:44 PM >

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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/20/2010 5:40:13 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

I am tired of hearing them complain too, but not because our boys and girls are dying for -them-, but because of the ignorance involved in their own complicity in the affair.




But it's so much easier to blame evil bully America. I have gone overboard in this thread but there have been around 6,000 American deaths to 1,000 of all other countries combined. That is crap and unacceptable... six of our boys and girls are dieing for every one of the rest of the world combined. And still many complain.

There is fear in all the western world yet we are doing the lions share of fighting it... I say fuck um let them blow up the Eiffel tower...blow up the subway systems... burn their planes from the sky… let Iran and Korea have the bomb and the missiles to deliver them. Then see if they still complain.

I’m mad as hell and would love to kick some ass!!!

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/20/2010 7:47:45 PM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		My! It seems that there is an emerging consensus that at least the first half of Option (b) outlined in post # 79 ["(b) Let the rest of the world take care of itself and the US can take care of its own citizens."] is desirable. Excellent!

Can we now get back to discussing healthcare which is what this thread is supposed to be about?

Can i admit to be amazed by the lack of concern shown at the tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths annually in the US system? Not a single word of regret .... with the notable exception of tazzygirl. Should i conclude from this that, for conservatives, this is an acceptable level of fatalities? Or that you just don't care? Or .....? Please enlighten me, I'd love to know.

It is a mantra of the Right universally that "the private sector is always more efficient than the public". Comparing healthcare performance across the advanced democracies suggests that, as far as healthcare is concerned, this mantra is more an article of faith than an evidence-based description of reality.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/20/2010 7:53:47 PM >

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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/20/2010 8:03:38 PM   
Laymedown60


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Status: offline 		It is all about heath care... the estimate for 10 years of Obama's health care cost is around 250 billion... The US spends 700 billion every year in defense... If we were to reduce our percent of our economy 1 percent and the rest of the western world combined would raise theirs 1 percent then we could afford the same healthcare you have. We could pay for all 10 years in one. We would still be contributing a larger defense percent than any other country even with the reduction.

So... getting others to contribute their fair share will allow us to afford to save those lives you are talking about. Do you see why I am harping on western Europe to pick up the slack and stop killing us both on the battlefield and off of it.

Build your own damn defense…use the money you have been sinking into infrastructure and healthcare for the last 50 years while we paid with dollars and lives for your protection.

Get off your high and mighty horse and get your hands dirty and see what it takes to keep your way of life.

This is my mad ID...lol

< Message edited by Laymedown60 -- 11/20/2010 8:07:06 PM >

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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/20/2010 8:20:21 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Laymedown60

It is all about heath care... the estimate for 10 years of Obama's health care cost is around 250 billion... The US spends 700 billion every year in defense... If we were to reduce our percent of our economy 1 percent and the rest of the western world combined would raise theirs 1 percent then we could afford the same healthcare you have. We could pay for all 10 years in one. We would still be contributing a larger defense percent than any other country even with the reduction.

So... getting others to contribute their fair share will allow us to afford to save those lives you are talking about. Do you see why I am harping on western Europe to pick up the slack and stop killing us both on the battlefield and off of it.

Build your own damn defense…use the money you have been sinking into infrastructure and healthcare for the last 50 years while we paid with dollars and lives for your protection.

Get off your high and mighty horse and get your hands dirty and see what it takes to keep your way of life.

This is my mad ID...lol
Against whom are the Europeans to defend themselves?


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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/20/2010 9:02:14 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Us if I had my way...lol...terrorists in Germany... terrorists in the UK...terrorists in France...extremism rampant and if a part of the world is safe for them to organize, plan, and finance then you and your children will not be safe in the skies, subways, schools, places of business, or your homes.

But don't believe me...I'm all for you finding out yourselves just as we did.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/20/2010 9:08:25 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Gentlemen and ladies I have made my points. I don't want to hog the thread or seem too fanatic which I will admit I have been so I'll end my comments. I understand your abhorrence of war and even though many more Americans have died then Western Europeans still 1,000 good souls died and their loves ones grieve and I respect their sacrifice.

I just hope you honor them as well.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/20/2010 10:40:59 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Laymedown60

It is all about heath care... the estimate for 10 years of Obama's health care cost is around 250 billion... The US spends 700 billion every year in defense... If we were to reduce our percent of our economy 1 percent and the rest of the western world combined would raise theirs 1 percent then we could afford the same healthcare you have. We could pay for all 10 years in one. We would still be contributing a larger defense percent than any other country even with the reduction.

So... getting others to contribute their fair share will allow us to afford to save those lives you are talking about. Do you see why I am harping on western Europe to pick up the slack and stop killing us both on the battlefield and off of it.

Build your own damn defense…use the money you have been sinking into infrastructure and healthcare for the last 50 years while we paid with dollars and lives for your protection.

Get off your high and mighty horse and get your hands dirty and see what it takes to keep your way of life.

This is my mad ID...lol

Being Australian i am not sure that i have a "high and mighty horse" to get off. However if someone has a high and mighty horse to spare, please send it to me. Just for you, Laymedown60, I'll be happy to go through the motions of getting on and off it and promise to carefully note any changes to my way of life.

How American tax $ are prioritised and spent is decided by Americans i would have thought. Conspiracy theories about some secret cabal of Western European Arms manufacturers and financiers (post #84) do have a certain novelty value. Alas, in the absence of evidence, they have no other value. So i don't find attempts to pass the buck to Europeans at all persuasive.

I note the questions i posed at the end of my last post remain, at this point, unanswered.

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RE: World comparison shows U.S. health care lacking - 11/20/2010 10:58:51 PM   
Edwynn


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Whence all this late coming terrorist threat that the US, superficially, is "protecting" the rest of the world from?

Not from all the arms that the Reagan administration sold to Iran immediately after them releasing all those hostages they held for over a year.

Not even from Bush I selling Hussein all that anthrax when he was VP.

Do you think that groundless and superficially politically meaningless invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq might have had anything to do with the substantial uptick in terrorism? Just maybe?

Do you think that being caught in outright lies as puffed up rationale for invading Iraq has anything to do with the rest of the world not taking the US seriously on anything anymore?

Well, one never knows. Could be just pure speculation on my part.

I mean, just from having an established history of overthrowing Latin American and African democratically elected leaders to be replaced by murderous dictators shouldn't raise any suspicions regarding actual intent here, should it? (not to mention, Iranian and Iraqian dictators in the bargain). After all, the US was just following British colonialist practice, and stealing Vietnam from the French so that British and US defense contractors could have a bigger slice of that pie.

All I was saying previously, however, was that European and commonwealth countries should not be so averse to learning history, and looking to the defense contractors in their own countries as to gain some insight into the current situation, as fun sport that finger-wagging at the US may be. And since everything has to be paid for one way or another, it is not at all "off topic" to explain how supertankers of taxpayer cash being sent to  financial companies and US and EUROPEAN defense contractors might preclude having enough funds for a proper health care system.






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/20/2010 11:10:57 PM >

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