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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 9:43:31 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

First Israel can not be condemned without Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine being condemned. They are tied together in their violence none more or less guilty then the others.


How so? Only Israel has stolen, and continues to steal, lands belonging to others.



So when are you going to demand that the Pakistanis give the land back to India?

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 10:32:53 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
How so? Only Israel has stolen, and continues to steal, lands belonging to others.

Really?
So when are you guys returning all of that land you seized from the Indians, then?




quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
i do love seeing yanks squirm when asked that, ...




quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
What I find strange is that three English (AFAIK as based in the English areas of UK) males post up all the threads about Israel on here -  ... 




quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
BTW - I am not an American.


I beg your pardon: whenever somebody on the internet starts using Israel as an excuse to come out with a load of obnoxious and as often as not antisemtic blather about the beastly landgrabbing jews fucking over the poor innocent arabs who want to exterminate them, I assume that they're American.








British comedy at its finest.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/24/2010 11:04:54 PM >

(in reply to Aylee)
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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/25/2010 6:30:33 AM   
Aneirin


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I did intend this topic to be a serious conversation on world events as they are unfolding, a speculation on where the international beady eye will fall next as I am wondering if there is more to this than just randomly picking up on where the media highlights.

Where does anyone suppose is the next country for world condemnation on human rights that result is not so favourable press and critique ?

And where does anyone suppose will be the next country for the military version of the above ?

I am interested in the future here, based upon events as they are unfolding, not the past, as the past is gone, we live for the future, not the past.


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Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/25/2010 7:50:06 AM   
MasterNJ20


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Well I tried to stay to your original post, the UN/international community has a habit of focusing on one event, Israel. Humanitarian crisis like Darfur and nuclear warfare waiting to happen like North Korea should be taking center stage, however it will most likely not remove Israel from its focus because the muslim world wants Israel on the spotlight. Its useful for them. If the international community does shift it will most likely be to the US and its inhumane treatment of cracking down of illegal immigrants. North Korea, Iran, and Syria all deserve to be in the spot light at this moment, but will most likely be drowned out in the UN by hatred towards the US and Israel for the coming years so I doubt the spot light will shift in terms of resolutions and decrees, even if the news media follows those 3 key players.

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/25/2010 1:29:04 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

What I find strange is that three English (AFAIK as based in the English areas of UK) males post up all the threads about Israel on here - most prolifically Hertz but also Northern Gent and Anerin. Now I’m not suggesting all English people hate Israel as Politesub and Moonhead clearly have a vastly more balanced approach but it is a bit strange nonetheless considering the large number of nationalities that post on this forum! There are threads started by these people on a quite frequent basis and notably this happens while Israeli-Palestinian issues are relatively quiet in the news. It should also be noted that no one on here starts threads that are positive of Israel – at least not in the last few months anyway. People like myself are only trying to redress what is pretty extreme blatant pro-Palestinian propaganda.


It's quite simple. I do hate Israel. I hated apartheid South Africa for similar reasons. Also, Israeli-Palestinian events are not 'quiet in the news' as you claim. In the last few weeks we've had a UN report on Israeli war crimes and the flotilla, we've had some stuff about Israeli war crimes and human shields, and we've probably had a number of other posts about Israeli war crimes - all of which are completely current. The only reason you think things have calmed down is because you only bother to read the news reports which offer a positive view of Israel - and it has to be said, there haven't been many of those because Israel isn't exactly making a positive contribution anywhere in the world at the moment. It's difficult to make threads that are 'positive of Israel' when Israel does nothing to feel positive about. Unless war crimes are a good thing, in which case they do a lot of good.

I also object to your description of the news articles that have been posted and discussed as 'extreme blatant pro-Palestinian propaganda'. It isn't propaganda to suggest that Israeli soldiers using a 9 year old child as a human shield getting suspended sentences for their crime is not justice. Especially when some poor Arab dude got jailed for a year for having the temerity to protest at the Wall Of Shame.

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/25/2010 1:30:39 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

First Israel can not be condemned without Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine being condemned. They are tied together in their violence none more or less guilty then the others.


How so? Only Israel has stolen, and continues to steal, lands belonging to others.



So when are you going to demand that the Pakistanis give the land back to India?


You're 'avin a larf, aintcha? Do you know any history beyond the US at all?

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/25/2010 1:31:55 PM   
hertz


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Sorry, Aneirin - I'll butt out now...

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/25/2010 1:34:16 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

First Israel can not be condemned without Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine being condemned. They are tied together in their violence none more or less guilty then the others.


How so? Only Israel has stolen, and continues to steal, lands belonging to others.



So when are you going to demand that the Pakistanis give the land back to India?


You're 'avin a larf, aintcha? Do you know any history beyond the US at all?


Maybe she's thinking of the ongoing border dispute over Kashmir?

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/25/2010 1:48:52 PM   
Edwynn


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She was.

How it could have been read as anything else is beyond me. But I don't even want to ask.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/25/2010 1:49:53 PM >

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/25/2010 2:00:19 PM   
hertz


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Have the Pakistanis stolen Kashmir from India, then? Why didn't I hear about this?

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/25/2010 2:14:58 PM   
Edwynn


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The reference to it as 'stealing' was the poster's take on it, one shared by a number of others. I myself said that I knew what area of conflict (politically and geographically) she was referring to and would have thought that most readers knew likewise, while not stating whether I agreed with that assessment or not. It's been some time since I delved into the details of the regional conflict there myself but I assumed that most anyone who's been taking much notice of world affairs for a sufficient length of time would be aware that India and Pakistan have been engaged in conflict for some decades, hence my wonderment at misinterpretation of the poster's statement, agree-/disagreement with the sentiment expressed therein notwithstanding.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/25/2010 2:20:39 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/25/2010 2:28:10 PM   
hertz


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But Kashmir has never been stolen by Pakistan. Ever. This:

quote:

So when are you going to demand that the Pakistanis give the land back to India?


Is utter nonsense.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/25/2010 2:36:18 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

What I find strange is that three English (AFAIK as based in the English areas of UK) males post up all the threads about Israel on here - most prolifically Hertz but also Northern Gent and Anerin. Now I’m not suggesting all English people hate Israel as Politesub and Moonhead clearly have a vastly more balanced approach but it is a bit strange nonetheless considering the large number of nationalities that post on this forum! There are threads started by these people on a quite frequent basis and notably this happens while Israeli-Palestinian issues are relatively quiet in the news. It should also be noted that no one on here starts threads that are positive of Israel – at least not in the last few months anyway. People like myself are only trying to redress what is pretty extreme blatant pro-Palestinian propaganda.


It's quite simple. I do hate Israel. I hated apartheid South Africa for similar reasons. Also, Israeli-Palestinian events are not 'quiet in the news' as you claim. In the last few weeks we've had a UN report on Israeli war crimes and the flotilla, we've had some stuff about Israeli war crimes and human shields, and we've probably had a number of other posts about Israeli war crimes - all of which are completely current. The only reason you think things have calmed down is because you only bother to read the news reports which offer a positive view of Israel - and it has to be said, there haven't been many of those because Israel isn't exactly making a positive contribution anywhere in the world at the moment. It's difficult to make threads that are 'positive of Israel' when Israel does nothing to feel positive about. Unless war crimes are a good thing, in which case they do a lot of good.

I also object to your description of the news articles that have been posted and discussed as 'extreme blatant pro-Palestinian propaganda'. It isn't propaganda to suggest that Israeli soldiers using a 9 year old child as a human shield getting suspended sentences for their crime is not justice. Especially when some poor Arab dude got jailed for a year for having the temerity to protest at the Wall Of Shame.



I of course mean relatively quiet in the news in comparison with times of conflict. The truth is that it is never quiet in the news because people like yourself continually attack this state in an obsessive fashion. You did indeed bring up issues that were not in essence big news items such as the disagreement with Hague so your unhealthy Israel Obsessive Compulsive Disorder continues unabated.

You must have a trojan spying on my computer because how could you possibly know what news stories I read. I primarily read the Irish Times and the Irish Independent. The Independent is a bit less hostile than the Times but only because the Times continually attacks Israel and presents opinion pieces by biased journalists like Michael Jansen as actual news. It is in fact yourself who I suspect reads news by biased pro-Palestinian publications and sites since many of the links you post come from such sources. If you disagree I’ll be happy to trawl through the threads and post this up to prove it.

You tried to make out in an early post on the “Israel” thread that you were pleased the thread starter was not another Israel “fanboy”. Here you are contradicting yourself by saying there is nothing positive to say about Israel. There actually is quite a bit and many people who don’t hate the place are blown away by it when they visit. I knew a few Irish fans who visited back in 2005 for a world cup qualifier expecting a war zone and they said it was one of the nicest places they visited. So positive was the buzz in media reports that the IPSC in Ireland started aggressive counter-demonstrations in response. One positive news story I did read is about Tel Aviv http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/they-call-my-home-sin-city-2412491.html – which seems to be the Middle-East’s San Francisco. Of course anything positive about Israel is stained as Israeli propaganda such as their efforts in Haiti.

You object to my stating the posts are propagandistic but in the same breath refer to the wall as the “Wall of Shame”. lol Plenty of people protest at the wall and very violently as many videos on Youtube attest. Some have actually destroyed parts with diggers etc. so while I don’t know this individual case – it cannot be representative of the common Palestinian experience with protests.

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/25/2010 2:44:08 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
So when are you going to demand that the Pakistanis give the land back to India?


You're 'avin a larf, aintcha? Do you know any history beyond the US at all?





quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

But Kashmir has never been stolen by Pakistan. Ever. This:

quote:

So when are you going to demand that the Pakistanis give the land back to India?


Is utter nonsense.





That could well be, but I was puzzled as to an interpretation that held this view to be some product of US history, or as a manifestation of world outlook limited only to that. It is certainly not anything widespread amongst the general populace here, that I am aware of.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/25/2010 2:48:34 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/26/2010 1:45:56 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

That could well be, but I was puzzled as to an interpretation that held this view to be some product of US history, or as a manifestation of world outlook limited only to that. It is certainly not anything widespread amongst the general populace here, that I am aware of.


You are not aware of the stereotype that suggests the average US citizen knows next to nothing about the geopolitics of the rest of the world, or world history? That's what I thought I was seeing.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/26/2010 2:50:57 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

That could well be, but I was puzzled as to an interpretation that held this view to be some product of US history, or as a manifestation of world outlook limited only to that. It is certainly not anything widespread amongst the general populace here, that I am aware of.


You are not aware of the stereotype that suggests the average US citizen knows next to nothing about the geopolitics of the rest of the world, or world history? That's what I thought I was seeing.




Of course, I and most other US citizens are well aware of the stereotype thanks to you and a relatively few other British that promote and demonstrate it repeatedly on forums (or fora).

What I've not seen to this point however was the particular case of claiming that Pakistan "stole" part of the Kashmir region from India was another item in some uniquely US American bag of geopolitical ignorance, and in any case whatever level of awareness that would consider that conflict at all, however wrong the assessment of it by your estimation, would seem to contradict the stereotype. In any event, ignoring that particular contradiction for the moment, puzzlement yet prevails because I was not aware that taking that side of the issue was anything widespread amoungst US geopolitical estimation of things, nor that such view was unique to the US overall view of world affairs.

All that aside, I'm not sure why you take as gauge of overall geopolitical awareness of a country the sentiments of the "average" citizen. I've never deluded myself that the "average citizen" of any country best represents meaningful awareness of much of anything. You also sometimes seem to use sentiments of the more blatantly ignorant (which I'd think we're both aware are often very loud) rather than average, but I could be mistaken there.

If your stereotype seems to be a bit convenient, oversimplified, and facile at times, I should also tell you that on this side of it our education system and our media have been working very hard these last ten years or so to dumb down the citizenry as much as possible, and the discrepancy  between the stereotype and the reality narrows year by year, but only as regards the "average" citizenry, not those who retain their own good sense in spite of all the countervailing efforts.

But don't blame us for what we can't control, unless you are of the same delusion that many Americans are that voting actually changes anything of significance, and please don't take anything our idiotic media say as having anything to do with reality, especially as any representation of what thinking people think.

As you are now having large demonstrations and a few small riots over the tuition increases in the UK, in the US many hundreds of elementary (primary) schools have been permanently shuttered these last 2 years, many teacher layoffs, etc.

It's not going to get better anytime soon.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/26/2010 2:57:11 PM >

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/26/2010 3:04:53 PM   
hertz


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Yes - it's a dumb stereotype, I get that. Stereotypes are dumb - I think that's part of their attractiveness. What I am getting from this is that we are both a bit puzzled. I am puzzled at the question: 'So when are you going to demand that the Pakistanis give the land back to India?' because it is nonsensical. You are (I believe) puzzled that in my effort to suggest some reason at least which might explain the question, I alighted on the idea that it might be a bit of that stereotyped general US ignorance on the part of the questioner. I'm not attached to the idea. It could just be ignorance, period. Or maybe there's some subtle point I am missing. Unless Aylee comes back to explain it, I can't see us getting anywhere with it.

I think underneath it all, judging from what you have said, we probably agree on quite a lot of things - the importance of education being one of them.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/26/2010 5:13:32 PM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

I think underneath it all, judging from what you have said, we probably agree on quite a lot of things - the importance of education being one of them.





Most likely. Especially regarding the colossal financial markets Ponzi scheme, of which I've delved into a good bit, and its affect on everything.

I only took a couple of jousts at you because I get so tired of people responding to seemingly every position or pointing out of some fact with nothing more than knee jerk reference to what some politician did rather than responding from their own stance (because they have none), so thank you for restoring what little confidence I have left in the potential outcome of things by your less than perfect but non-scripted responses. The stereotyping was just an invite, intended or not. 

Now I need to head back to the London burning thread to ask a few posters why they think that education is some  "privilege" or just some other item in the budget no different than another, and to point out to them that so-called third world countries are fighting tooth and nail to attain more of what Western powers currently seem intent on pissing away.


quote:

- the importance of education being one of them.




Thanks for the reminder.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/26/2010 6:03:50 PM >

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 38
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