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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 9:14:28 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

*groans*


You know what they say ... if you have to explain a joke then it's a shit joke.

Sorry!

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 9:17:11 AM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

In the interests of argument, I'm not sure I agree with RapierFugue's conclusion. Sometimes, breaking things is exactly what is needed to provoke change. Sometimes even, breaking things is necessary in order for one's voice to be heard. I wish it weren't so, but I am of the firm conviction that no matter how much our state claims itself via our democracy to listen to the voices of all, it simply does not do so. And sometimes, if one's voice is not to be heard, then one has to do more than simply shout to get a place at the table.

The history of the world is littered with violently destructive acts carried out in the pursuit of justice and freedom. It's right and it's proper that these acts, on occasion, occur. In the case of the student protests, their vote was secured with a pledge...



That pledge has been thrown aside without as much as a backwards glance. It's wrong. And it needs to be fixed.

On saying that, the incident with the fire extinguisher was dangerous and stupid. It's difficult to defend it. Similarly, it is is difficult to defend the police using horses to charge crowds of students and children in order to shut them up.





I believe there are others now looking into Clegg's pledge, as to whether it is legal for him to carry on with his present stance, as it is held once a paper is signed, then it can become a legal document and Clegg signed on the dotted line to help the students not crush them further. Perhaps he was stupid, or just believing he would not stand a chance of getting into power as usual, but fortune has swung his way, so now he must honour the signed for promises he has made in the past, for him to opt out despite what the current financial situation is, could well be illegal.

It is all well and good those that campaign to be elected to make promises, for we all know they never keep them, but for Clegg to actually sign a document which underlines a promise, he has gone further than the usual lies and must be held to account for the sake of his party, let alone any future campaigning by anyone.

For me, Clegg must be forced to act on his signed for promise, as many are calling for that promise to be honoured, if not, then he should be removed from government office as a proven liar, perhaps too stupid to see anything beyond his own power, and there perhaps a liability to this country.

But perhaps an irrational desire, I would like to see Clegg somehow behind bars, perhaps serve as a warning to all politicians that they will be held accountable.


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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 11:37:04 AM   
allthatjaz


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The truth is, Lib Dems should never of gone into coalition with Conservatives. As deputy Prime Minister how much control does Clegg really have? Cameron must be rubbing his greasy little mits together because him and his party are actually the ones to blame for this and nobody is pointing a finger in his direction.

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 12:22:56 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Yes, I agree, but Clegg is up there in bed with Cameron as  joint prime minister, he should be opposing the student fee hikes as per his pledge. He is in a position to influence, but has chosen not to and so all student and lecturer hatred is directed at him especially, as he is the lying scrote that kidded the young. He should follow up on his promises not turn blue as he has done, or else the coalition means nothing, for we are seeing tory and no lib/dem.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 12:49:04 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Yes, I agree, but Clegg is up there in bed with Cameron as  joint prime minister, he should be opposing the student fee hikes as per his pledge.

"And our headline tonight; politicians lie! ... in other news, water is wet and dying puts a bit of a crimp in your golf game ... news at eleven!"

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 1:45:13 PM   
hertz


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Status: offline 		The Lib Dems are dead as a party now. Clegg has killed them. When they come knocking at my door asking me to vote for AV (Alternative Vote, for those of you outside the UK) I'm going to enjoy telling them to get screwed. Why would I want to vote for a system that makes it more likely that we get a government full of liars and bastards? And when the next election comes round, I'm going to use my vote to vote against the Lib Dem who currently holds my constituency. I'm hoping that if enough people join me, they will be annihilated at the next election. Revenge is a dish best served cold.

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 2:05:19 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

The Lib Dems are dead as a party now. Clegg has killed them. When they come knocking at my door asking me to vote for AV (Alternative Vote, for those of you outside the UK) I'm going to enjoy telling them to get screwed. Why would I want to vote for a system that makes it more likely that we get a government full of liars and bastards? And when the next election comes round, I'm going to use my vote to vote against the Lib Dem who currently holds my constituency. I'm hoping that if enough people join me, they will be annihilated at the next election. Revenge is a dish best served cold.

I'm puzzled as to why you're so anti- Lib-Dem, when they've done no more than any current politician of any current party would have done.

I should add, I'm not a Lib-Dem supporter. But it seems strange to me that people expect a mouse to hold a lion's leash.

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 2:12:12 PM   
hertz


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Status: offline 		It's the sense of betrayal that has done it for me. Before the election, I thought the Lib Dems were a progressive party with an interest in truth in politics and in fairness. That's what they were saying. Turns out they were Tories all along. Of course I'm annoyed - they're going to fuck us over without as much as an apology.

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 2:17:12 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

It's the sense of betrayal that has done it for me. Before the election, I thought the Lib Dems were a progressive party with an interest in truth in politics and in fairness. That's what they were saying. Turns out they were Tories all along. Of course I'm annoyed - they're going to fuck us over without as much as an apology.

No, they were politicians all along.

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 2:56:12 PM   
hertz


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Status: offline 		Yeah, I see that now. I was duped. Sucker!

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 4:09:41 PM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
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Status: offline 		If two parties/rivals come together in government and they have opposing views on a subject, one is going to have to break its pledges.
And this brings the question….Can a minor party promise to get everything they want?

BTW, I am just playing devils advocate here!



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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 5:21:15 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz



The truth is, Lib Dems should never of gone into coalition with Conservatives. As deputy Prime Minister how much control does Clegg really have? Cameron must be rubbing his greasy little mits together because him and his party are actually the ones to blame for this and nobody is pointing a finger in his direction.


I dont agree, Clegg forming a coalition with Brown would just have meant more of the same. While Clegg seems to be backtracking on his pledge, lets not forget he isnt in power, so has to do deal with the Conservatives. You talk about Cameron being to blame for this but what is your solution, the Conservatives had two choices, make cuts or drastically raise taxes. The point has been made that whoever got re-elected would prove to be unpopular when dealing with the deficit. Cameron has done nothing sleazy and nothing to warrant the "Greasy little mits" comment. We should at least give the coalition time and see how things pan out.

Lets also remember there are two seperate issues with education here. Does everyone have a right to a basic education, up to school leaver level, the answer is yes. Secondly, does everyone have a right to go on to higher education. I have mixed feelings on this, of course it is better for us all if people are educated to a higher level, but should the taxpayer subsidise those who will go on to make a very good living. I feel that the costs should be met partly by public funds and partly from interst free student loans paid back once you reach a certain wage level. I cant understand why some of you feel this is unfair.

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 5:24:39 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

It's the sense of betrayal that has done it for me. Before the election, I thought the Lib Dems were a progressive party with an interest in truth in politics and in fairness. That's what they were saying. Turns out they were Tories all along. Of course I'm annoyed - they're going to fuck us over without as much as an apology.


Parties breaking pledges is nothing new, but as I said in my previous post Clegg doesnt have overall control so is unable to stick to his promises. Unlike Labour and Conservative who constanly break election manifestos.

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 8:02:33 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		A pedge is pledge and a signed on the dotted line  means more, but Clegg has destroyed many peoples belief in politics. I for one after taking interest in the last election feeling betrayed, I will go back to my original stance, that for voting independants who believed in what they offer that much, they have funded the 10k
themselves. A wasted vote to many, but that begs the question if your desire is change, why vote for those with interests in continuing the status quo.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/28/2010 3:19:37 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		College has gone up so much.

I mean it is CRAZY.  I could never afford to go again.

Back in the day-  tuition was  $18 a credit hour.  It went up to $20 and people were mad then.   I am 47.  So  it really is not that long ago.

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/28/2010 5:27:54 AM   
hertz


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Status: offline 		Of course, on the surface at least, there is a reasonable argument to be had for the principle that if you take on a degree course, then you should be the one paying for it and not the Postman, Binman or whoever through their taxation. After all, you are going to be the one who benefits from it - the person who empties your bin shouldn't be put in a position where s/he has to subsidise your degree course, because there's nothing in it for them. This is how we get to the idea of fees and repayment.

But... The end result of this will be that people taking degree courses will only do so if they are confident that the debt they incur, which is likely to be in the tens of thousands of pounds range, will pay for itself. This means that students will tend to gravitate towards subjects with a hard employability factor built into them, effectively ending the idea of education for educations sake. And this is just great - we have far too many arts students, fucking media studies students, philosophers, ancient languages students... well, you get the picture. Who needs more students with useless degrees in subjects no-one cares about? 

It's a crock of shit though, really. This sort of carelessness about education is just typical of the plebian conservative mind set. They don't see the value of culture or art or pure research because all they are interested in is whether or not it makes money.

Of course the taxpayer should fund higher education. It's not a problem, as long as we make a point of taxing people who are being paid a high salary sufficient enough that the money we have spent on educating them is retrieved and put back into the next generation's education.

And yes, Aneirin, a pledge is a pledge. Clegg is a fucking liar who can't be trusted.

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/28/2010 10:41:59 AM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		You see the system as it is, I spent twenty years in industry without a degree, but whilst I was in industry, no doubt part of my taxation funded the then students to get their degree. Now, I believe it is my turn, as it is for anyone else who wishes to pursue higher education after working for some time in other work, and that includes binmen and postmen, for the system is they can also study if they desire to, a good system I believe. The course I am on is all ex industry, even some retired people, everyone has worked for years or been mothers bringing up their children. But whilst I was in industry, I gained a HNC in civil engineering and an OND in aerospace engineering, all qualications that helped in different occupations, but I attained them via nightschool, and in some cases day release schemes, where I lost pay for attending college to better myself in my industry

Come age 40, nothing doing in my industry, can't get anywhere, time for a change and with that, a foundation degree in applied arts, as I was already a hobbyist metalsmith, I just needed the bit of paper to prove my skills to an employer. But now I think I will be dropping out due to the cut backs, part time lecturers, knackered machines etc, fed up with it all, plus it costs more than I can afford to attend to actually go there to attend my lectures, when they happen. What will I do, basically go self employed, a bit of metalsmithing and a bit of my old job.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/28/2010 11:04:42 AM   
allthatjaz


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Status: offline 		It was David Cameron's policy to higher education fees but bizarrely he seems to have the ability to ignore what is happening all around him.
What Clegg and the LD's need to do now is abstain the vote because only that way are they going to throw it back in the Tory direction.
Personally I believe that we all have a right to free education  and that includes further education, because education hugely helps our economy. Cost of living whilst being educated is different and needs to be paid for by the students, either here and now or once the debt is afforded by them.

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 11/28/2010 11:24:17 AM >

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/28/2010 11:17:38 AM   
PeanutTigerinBox


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but this 2nd demonstration was peacefuller (or better controlled from the police, whatever the reason was) than the first one in october or beginning of november, where they had at first 250 police officers for 30.000-50.000 people - figures varied between those two in the news after first demo - and smashed entry windows at the entry doors to get into the tory headquarters. Many papers claimed the 2nd demo aimed to go to the libdem headquarter, however that one appears to be easier sealed off by security in advance to avoid them to get there in the first place.

< Message edited by PeanutTigerinBox -- 11/28/2010 11:20:37 AM >

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/28/2010 12:51:09 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

The Lib Dems are dead as a party now. Clegg has killed them. When they come knocking at my door asking me to vote for AV (Alternative Vote, for those of you outside the UK) I'm going to enjoy telling them to get screwed. Why would I want to vote for a system that makes it more likely that we get a government full of liars and bastards? And when the next election comes round, I'm going to use my vote to vote against the Lib Dem who currently holds my constituency. I'm hoping that if enough people join me, they will be annihilated at the next election. Revenge is a dish best served cold.

A few people have suggested that the main reason for the coalition was that Cassandra wanted to discredit the Libdems. If that was what he was up to, he's done a fine job of that.

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