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RE: Supposed Craigslist Ad - 1/3/2011 9:10:13 PM

PyrotheClown

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never knew all the science behind it, just live round reptiles long enough to know what they can and can't do.
nice to have fancy words to describe the crazy shit now

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RE: Supposed Craigslist Ad - 1/3/2011 9:36:13 PM

omkfY

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From: State of Jefferson
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

quote:

ORIGINAL: omkfY
At that point I'll gladly trade the small chance of postmortem venomization through hoof and shoe with the moderate risk of a bit to the chest, nose, or leg.

It doesn't quite work that way however. If your weapon was not capable of instantly obliterating the entire head of the animal, the risk of a fully envenomating strike is increased, not decreased, by a bullet. Swiftly moving the snake with a branch without injuring it represents a much lower risk.

I'm sorry, but trying to move a 4 foot rattlesnake with a branch 20 miles from the nearest roadway is just asking for a lifeflight. And its not being hit by "a bullet," its being hit by hundreds of pellets covering a basketball-sized area with each shot. If you need a visual, here is some random youtube dude's target practice clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjnLKbhCUzA

quote:

quote:

We do agree that a shotgun is the preferred firearm for this type of situation. Thankfully the ignorant lawmakers in Sacramento, ingrained with the belief that a civilization's greatness can be measured by its effect on the skyline, had not yet forbidden the purchase of mail order ammunition and my .45 was loaded with snake shot from Cabelas.

Unless said "snake shot" is capable of totally obliterating the venom apparatus with a single impact, it's just as worthless as "snake repellant" and will produce the results I've described of a mortally wounded animal that has a 100% chance of fully unloading its venom reserves if it does successfully strike in self-defense.

I assure you they are far from worthless. 1 shot should be enough to instantly kill a coiled snake comfortably from 10 feet, but since they cycle just fine why be stingy? A dead snake will flop around a bit and the jaws may open/close, but it does not strike.

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RE: Supposed Craigslist Ad - 1/3/2011 9:44:11 PM

PyrotheClown

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quote:

ORIGINAL: omkfY

I assure you they are far from worthless. 1 shot should be enough to instantly kill a coiled snake comfortably from 10 feet, but since they cycle just fine why be stingy? A dead snake will flop around a bit and the jaws may open/close, but it does not strike.

You do know that a snake can still bite with out it's body, right?not saying it would be able to strike...or do much of anything else..but still

and why on earth would you have to take it 20miles? is that how far a snake has to be from you to make you feel safe lol?

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RE: Supposed Craigslist Ad - 1/3/2011 9:50:50 PM

omkfY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

The idea of having to use a gun on a rattlesnake is unbelievably silly to me. They are so little and weak and easy to physically control and move around.

Ha! Things are a little different outside the terrarium...

quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown

and why on earth would you have to take it 20miles? is that how far a snake has to be from you to make you feel safe lol?

Just an example of how far you might have to hike over rough terrain to reach some semblance of civilization.

< Message edited by omkfY -- 1/3/2011 9:57:49 PM >

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RE: Supposed Craigslist Ad - 1/3/2011 9:53:28 PM

PyrotheClown

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quote:

ORIGINAL: omkfY

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

The idea of having to use a gun on a rattlesnake is unbelievably silly to me. They are so little and weak and easy to physically control and move around.

Ha! Things are a little different outside the terrarium...

Where do you think I got mine.......really, even when their posturing and all that, they are really easy to deal with

unless of course you are a rodent....then you're fucked

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RE: Supposed Craigslist Ad - 1/3/2011 10:01:46 PM

LadyNTrainer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: omkfY
I'm sorry, but trying to move a 4 foot rattlesnake with a branch 20 miles from the nearest roadway is just asking for a lifeflight.

A 4' oreganus is a pretty big one; this is a small species. But at that size they are disgustingly easy to handle with a branch. What do you think a 4' snake is going to do if you are at the other end of a 5' branch? Their strike range to body radio sucks. Typical strike range on a 4' heavy bodied crotalid is around 2', though the 50% ratio can go up a bit if they're really freaked out, or if they are smaller and lighter.

quote:

And its not being hit by "a bullet," its being hit by hundreds of pellets covering a basketball-sized area with each shot. If you need a visual, here is some random youtube dude's target practice clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjnLKbhCUzA

The original topic here is handguns, but you did mention snake shot. I'm dubious as to whether the degree of pellet scatter depicted could completely obliterate the venom apparatus to the point that the horse wouldn't still have been bitten upon making physical contact with the animal. At close range it could. On multiple shots it could. Anything less would leave enough intact pieces for a reflex bite. It really doesn't take much. There are a lot of envenomations on record, very very bad ones, from dead snakes or portions thereof. If you don't believe me, please believe the medical literature.

quote:

A dead snake will flop around a bit and the jaws may open/close, but it does not strike.

If you've physically destroyed the supporting bones and muscles, that may be true. Otherwise, it depends. In the incident that convinced me to never use the standard commercial euthanasia drugs and protocols for snakes again, I witnessed striking behaviors continue for more than twenty minutes in a large adult rattlesnake that had been pithed and had no heartbeat, in addition to a broken neck and shattered skull. The same animal had been previously shot with a pellet scatter similar to what you had described. Chemically (or manually) stopping the heart doesn't work for shit on snakes, and neither does scatter shot unless you do enough damage to physically destroy the structures you want to keep from moving. If there are intact muscles and nerves left, they can keep right on automatically firing even in the absence of a heart or a brain. And on autofire, there is no "conserve venom" setting, which is why so many of the absolute worst bites on medical record tend to be from dead snakes or from just their heads.

< Message edited by LadyNTrainer -- 1/3/2011 10:29:17 PM >

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RE: Supposed Craigslist Ad - 1/3/2011 10:24:16 PM

LadyNTrainer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: omkfY
Ha! Things are a little different outside the terrarium...

Oh. piffle. That's a cute little wee thing. I could have it calmed down and riding a snake hook in no time at all, and if it was a nicer color morph I might well take it home for my terrarium.

The "high S" posture is the scared one, not the serious one. Their launch dynamics are epically shitty from that position and their strike range is reduced to less than 25% of their length. This is a purely defensive posture and not intended for serious strikes so much as bluffing and posturing to avoid confrontation. Their aim also sucks a whole lot from this position. Don't expect one to successfully hit a prey item on tongs if you present it while the animal is in this posture. It will almost always miss even if you helpfully put the mouse right in front of it. Basically it's a waste of lab time to offer a food or venom sponge target while it's doing this behavior. The results will be awkward and silly and just stress the poor thing. Fortunately you don't see the "high S" in the lab very much, at least not with oreganus, as these guys calm down in record time. When I see it in the wild, it just makes them more convenient to pick up. Oh look, a nice high loop already made for me, the snake hook goes here. That was easy.

So yeah, if you intended this picture to be scary, it's not so much.

< Message edited by LadyNTrainer -- 1/3/2011 10:30:16 PM >

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RE: Supposed Craigslist Ad - 1/3/2011 10:44:53 PM

LadyNTrainer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown
Where do you think I got mine.......really, even when their posturing and all that, they are really easy to deal with

Much easier in this particular posture actually. It's got ready-made handles, and the animal has shortened its strike range and significantly downgraded its strike accuracy by rising to the bluff posture. The "low S" is the posture that maximizes their aim and range and can give an inexperienced handler far more trouble. A colleague of mine is doing his primary research work on reptile locomotor dynamics, and it's fascinating stuff. Also bloody practical to know if you're working with them.

That's a well nourished adult male in the picture showing a high-fear display. Is it a wanderer in marginalized habitat (a fairly common scenario for males), or did the photographer just scare the living daylights out of the poor thing?

quote:

unless of course you are a rodent....then you're fucked

Yep. Rattlesnakes eat a lot of rodents in their lifetime. Rodent-borne illnesses hospitalize and kill a magnitude more people in one year than snakes have in the last fifty years in the United States.

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RE: Supposed Craigslist Ad - 1/4/2011 12:46:10 AM

LadyNTrainer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown
You do know that a snake can still bite with out it's body, right?not saying it would be able to strike...or do much of anything else..but still

Fuck. Put that shit behind a warning tag so that people who aren't into watching animal torture can make a better informed decision before clicking. It's no different from posting links to shock pics of decapitated puppies or mutilated kittens. The people who want to see that stuff should be able to; those of us who emphatically do not want to look at that shit should not have to. That animal is fully conscious and sensate; those are not reflex motions.

And to specifically address the "instant kill" claim made earlier in the thread. Sadly, mortal damage including decapitation does not kill a reptile instantly. Only total brain destruction kills instantly. While they are as fully innervated and as sensate as mammals, their tolerance for acidosis and hypoxia is not at all like a mammal's, and gross physical trauma does not cause them to lose consciousness. They take an agonizingly long time to die.

< Message edited by LadyNTrainer -- 1/4/2011 12:50:27 AM >

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RE: Supposed Craigslist Ad - 1/4/2011 5:26:52 AM

Hillwilliam

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Add copperheads to the "laid back venomous snake" list.

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RE: Supposed Craigslist Ad - 1/4/2011 11:19:18 AM

LadyNTrainer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Add copperheads to the "laid back venomous snake" list.

That whole genus (Agkistrodon; in this country that's coppers and cottonmouths/water moccasins) is mostly pretty laid back, especially as adults.

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RE: Supposed Craigslist Ad - 1/4/2011 11:23:28 AM

Hillwilliam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Add copperheads to the "laid back venomous snake" list.

That whole genus (Agkistrodon; in this country that's coppers and cottonmouths/water moccasins) is mostly pretty laid back, especially as adults.

Would you like a closeup pic of one that is giving birth? I'll send it to you on the other side.

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RE: Supposed Craigslist Ad - 1/4/2011 11:58:06 AM

LadyNTrainer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Would you like a closeup pic of one that is giving birth? I'll send it to you on the other side.

Those kinds of explicit pictures are always welcome in my inbox. :)

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RE: Supposed Craigslist Ad - 1/4/2011 1:23:16 PM

badboymichael

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A funny bit about a guy acting big and bad becaue he's the one with the gun has turned into a debate about snakes. What should we do with the guy who first mentioned the snake?

I'm seriously. Either start telling jokes about snakes or . . .

Did you hear about the snake who lost his skin at a Vegas casino?

Why didn't the snake bite the lawyer? Professional courtesy.

Are these jokes good? No. But at least I'm telling jokes.

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RE: Supposed Craigslist Ad - 1/4/2011 1:41:04 PM

Hillwilliam

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What's the difference between a road kill rattlesnake and a road kill lawyer

Skidmarks in front of the rattlesnake.

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