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Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 8:18:26 AM   
kittensmailbox


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From: Youngstown, Ohio
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OK this is a question i have asked myself for many, many years... How can a person BE humiliated, WHEN they like humiliation... How is that humiliation???

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~kitten
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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 8:32:18 AM   
MasterFireMaam


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Same way that a masochist can be hurt. They like it, so they are open to the effects they wish it to have on them.

Fire



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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 8:48:31 AM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
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From: New England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittensmailbox

OK this is a question i have asked myself for many, many years... How can a person BE humiliated, WHEN they like humiliation... How is that humiliation???


It is a complex thing, speaking of the diamond that is the human mind; turn it slightly and you discover angles and shafts of light that defy the previous view. It is possible to like not liking something; and as contradictory and mysterious as that may seem, it is a reality for some minds.

Having said that, I have known girls who have told me they are complete masochists; that any stroke of the whip or cane—no matter the intensity—would be pleasurable. I often demonstrate otherwise by raising the bottoms of their feet up and striking them there harshly with a riding crop. Their smug surety often changes in that moment. I suppose it's a matter of what we are used to and feel safe with; that one can be conditioned for any form of abuse, given enough time. It is in the end one of the amazing instruments of human adaptation, to re-route pain and displeasure—to cope with it and change it. I believe it's the keystone of human survival, and it's fun to "play" with it.


< Message edited by amayos -- 5/2/2006 9:19:47 AM >

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 9:14:31 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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http://www.collarchat.com/m_266448/mpage_1/key_humiliation/tm.htm#266532
Link to 18 threads on discussion of humiliation

But here is my personal essay on humiliation and objectification:

Part of it is BECAUSE of my academic background, I'm very smart and very well educated. I think a LOT, I work a LOT, I am a control freak, I have moderate OCD, I am the social planner for my group of friends.

Being an object means you don't have to think, you don't have to stress, you just have to BE that object. You are there, purely and passively, for service and use. There's no need for you to interpret anything, no need for you to react, only simply to BE there.

That's a pretty awesome state of being for me.

Another part, the shown off part, is because I am an exhibitionist, I get a huge charge out of people's energy when they enjoy looking and playing with me. They are giving ME lots of attention, they want to touch ME, they want to use ME for pleasure, I can provide them with a release, with a good time, a good memory.

The sexual usage part is just part of my universal sex fantasy life- it's just hot to be used, hot to be a hole to go in, do your thing and get out. I don't really know much about that other than what I've already stated. I can't tell you why it gets me so deep any more than I can tell you why bondage does.

Something most subs and slaves can understand- it takes away choice. You don't have to think, you don't get to say no, you are there to always say YES, an object, a trophy doesn't get to say stop or get to dictate how it is used.

I am somewhat materialistic in that I like to use my money and gifts to show people I care for them. It's a physical thing I can give to show I've been thinking of them and want to add to their lives. While I understand they don't NEED those things, it's a very powerful idea to me. So, to BE the object itself, to be given to someone else, has a distinct personal flavor to it.

You'll notice- all of these reasons are about ME, what I enjoy, what I get out of it.

The Owner will pass me around and use me in ways I don't necessarily enjoy directly. He will send me to people I don't have an affinity for, partly because he KNOWS I don't have an affinity for them. So I don't necessarily always love it, with anyone, anywhere. There are definitely circumstances in which I really hate it.

While I love attention, I am actually quite uncomfortable ASKING for attention, I am very uneasy when people actually look at me and say "Now, I'm going to give you all this attention, just for you, just to enjoy, and there's nothing you can do about it."

Part of it is because not too many people are actually really GOOD at giving me happy pleasure, part of it is that I've trained myself to adapt and become what the OTHER person needs for that session, which, if it's a good match, will also be what I need.

And part of it is just my innate shyness and discomfort with being a focal point of attention. I don't know what to do with it, I feel very exposed. Perhaps a paradox for someone who LOVES being exposed, but that's why I call humiliation a "burning."

So, the humiliation and objectification is a keen way for me to receive attention, which I love, while being passive about asking for it and simply being a pretty little butterfly that people are attracted to, rather than dealing with the harder ordeal for me of directly asking and directly being told to sit back and enjoy

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 9:24:01 AM   
ownedgirlie


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Humiliation opens me and exposes me to my core.  It tears down the barriers and creates a bond between he and I that nothing else can touch.  It brings me to the depths of my submission, and reinforces just how safe I feel with him.

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 9:45:09 AM   
kneltandtied


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It seems to me whether one"likes" or "dislikes" humiliation..it remains just that..humiliation. It's our responses to that particular stimuli that determine its effectivness in the M/s, D/s dynamic. Are you any less humiliated because you take the feelings it engenders  to feed the inner fire?
keep safe
knelt

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 10:07:54 AM   
kittensmailbox


Posts: 744
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From: Youngstown, Ohio
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i do thank everyone who wrote, i must be just a box of rocks, because i still do not understand if humiliation is enjoyable how can it be humiliation and not just "getting attention" "look at me, see what i will do" as where to me humiliation would something of shame {to me}....

_____________________________

~softly smiles

~lowers her eyes in respect~

~kitten

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 10:19:50 AM   
willowheart


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From: southern Minnesota
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I hate humiliation, but I crave it.
I love it, though I fear it.
It is the underlying theme of my most powerful fantasties. It is my strength perfected in weakness. But more, it is His Strength perfected through my weaknesses.
It's alot like mental bondage to me.
I believe I can't do "whatever". I doubt. I resist. I explain. I state why -- sometimes a humilating thing in itself. I trust Him so I obey. Will I blush, perhaps? Or turn ghostly white and freeze..??? Will I plead for help?
But I will have most certainly survived,  perhaps even thrived because of it. And that's where W/we find another level of intimacy.

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 10:22:53 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittensmailbox

i do thank everyone who wrote, i must be just a box of rocks, because i still do not understand if humiliation is enjoyable how can it be humiliation and not just "getting attention" "look at me, see what i will do" as where to me humiliation would something of shame {to me}....

I call humiliationg a "burning."

I love it and I hate it.  It rips me up, makes me feel helpless, and I love/hate it all the more.  It's an intense amalgamation of emotions and reactions.

And humiliation isn't always about seeing things.  One of the most intense humiliations I've had to endure was to beg for a piece of cake from my master.  It was a moment between him and I alone- and yet it blew me away.  I loved knowing he knew me enough to be able to reach into me that easily and that simply.  I loved knowing he WOULD do that to me, and I also hated it.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 10:56:25 AM   
willowheart


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From: southern Minnesota
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittensmailbox

i do thank everyone who wrote, i must be just a box of rocks, because i still do not understand if humiliation is enjoyable how can it be humiliation and not just "getting attention" "look at me, see what i will do" as where to me humiliation would something of shame {to me}....


Nah, I'm sure you are not a box of rocks!
Maybe this scenario can help...
It's something I am working on becoming.
Ideal:
My Sir "owns" me. All of me. Body, mind, soul, spirit... To Him I surrender all my doubts, fears, flaws, pains, questions, gifts, talents, emotions,  my guilts, my innocence, etc...
He will have come to truly Know me.
He takes any of these things and "plays" with it.
I am still me. The fear still exists. My emotions will still show.
       Let's say He makes me go into a sex shop, full of men at the time, wearing something very slutish, pull a huge, used dildo out of my purse right inside of the doorway, and has me walk with baby steps up to the big burly man behind the counter where I am to say, "this is too small for my ____. Do you have something larger?"
        Let's say I had never seen that dildo before today. Let me also say that in truth, I am an extremely polite and modest church-going woman... one who never even heard the word "cunt" before 2 years ago.
        I may cry. I can gaurentee I will be stuttering and shaking like a leaf. Sir may be standing in a corner smiling...
      After I complete my task, I may go into His arms and collapse into a spasm of jumbled nerves. And He will care for me. Every fiber of my being will KNOW that I am His....
   
That's what I love.... the result. not the actual humilation.
 
Does this clear things up a little? 
     
Other analogies:
Roller coasters and fear. 
Halloween and being scared silly.
But we love it and come back for more. 
 

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 11:19:08 AM   
kittensmailbox


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From: Youngstown, Ohio
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i do thank you willowheart, truly i do... i, myself would not find it humiliating for me as i would find it funny and embarrassing for the counter man.... ~sighs~ maybe it is just me... i guess things do not humiliate me the would others...

_____________________________

~softly smiles

~lowers her eyes in respect~

~kitten

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 11:24:41 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittensmailbox

i do thank you willowheart, truly i do... i, myself would not find it humiliating for me as i would find it funny and embarrassing for the counter man.... ~sighs~ maybe it is just me... i guess things do not humiliate me the would others...


Absolutely.

Tell me to go without panties, yay!

Tell me to go ask a guy to let me blow him for $5, sweet!

Tell me what a worthless piece of crap hole I am...heaven!

But...with the right person...with the right voice...with the right environment...with the right timing...with the right connection...tell me to ask for a kiss or call my name and I'll be a simpering mess of humiliation.



_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 11:56:22 AM   
Padriag


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Kind of funny this should come up today as I was just discussing the topic with someone over lunch.  I wrote an essay that is related to this one, dealing specifically with the difference between humiliation play and degradation.  While it doesn't specifically answer the question of why some enjoy it, I think combined with LA's and others comments it helps shed light on it.  Here then is the essay in its entirety.

Humiliation versus Degradation
A lifestyle essay



By: P Sean ONeal, copyright 1998, 2006



Among various discussions I have heard the subjects of humiliation play, the use of degrading acts, and so forth has come up from time to time. People have differing attitudes regarding the subject, some of which is the result of misunderstandings. This essay is in part about sorting out what these words mean, what humiliation play is, and the effects of each when used in this lifestyle.


I’ll start with the two words themselves, humiliation and degradation, and look at their meanings. To humiliate is to humble someone, to literally make them not proud, not arrogant, to create a spirit of deference or submission. Comparatively to degrade is to devalue, to remove value, to strip away rank, to bring into low esteem. Though the words are often used interchangeably, they are not synonyms and in fact refer to two different processes. Specifically to humiliate or humble is to alter the attitude of someone, but to degrade is to reduce the value or worth of someone and this is an important difference.


So what is humiliation play? Generally speaking it is a category of play forms which involve placing a submissive in humiliating circumstances. In some regards, much of fetish play involves a degree of humiliation, but does not generally focus on this aspect. Humiliation can be achieved through either things done to the submissive, or things the submissive is required to do. As a rule a submissive will find something they are required to actively do more humiliating that something they must passively accept being done to them. For example, a submissive required to submit to a vaginal examination might find it humiliating, however if that same submissive is require to "open" themselves up for examination by using clamps, speculums, etc. that is likely more humiliating. What is actually considered humiliation play can vary widely depending on the individuals involved. This is in part because its also based on personal perspective, what each person perceives as being humiliating. For example, requiring a submissive who grew up with very conservative values to go nude in front of friends might seem terribly humiliating even verging on being degrading. Requiring a submissive nudist to do the same thing might be viewed as trivial, normal and even fun. In other words, there is no exact answer to what is or isn’t humiliation play, as it varies by individual. What does remain true is that humiliation play is any play form which has the intent and/or effect of humiliating the submissive.


Above I make the point that individual perspective plays a large role in what constitutes what is and isn’t humiliating. It is likewise highly subjective as to what differentiates humiliation from degradation. The key element in making that determination is shame. That is, an act that causes the submissive to feel ashamed afterwards can be said to have been degrading; an act that may cause embarrassment or which is humbling, but which did not cause shame can be said to be humiliating. In other words it goes right back to the definitions I gave above. If an act leaves a submissive feeling humbled, reminded of her status as a submissive, perhaps embarrassed, but her self worth is intact… then that act was humiliating for her. But if the act leaves her feeling ashamed of what she was required to do, ashamed of what was done to her, and/or feeling as though her self worth has been reduced or lost, then that act was degrading.


I make these distinctions because the effects of humiliation versus the effects of degradation are very different and with equally different consequences to the dominant / submissive relationship. Taking degradation first, what effects can it reasonably be expected to have on a the relationship? A submissive who is subjected to degradation, particularly if this continues over an extended period will begin to question their self worth, they will feel shamed and ashamed of themselves. This alone will tend to cause them to become increasingly shy and withdrawn. Degradation also tends to erode self confidence, which causes the submissive to become hesitant in performing tasks, and in some cases even in performing routine tasks. Over time these feelings can result in chronic depression, self loathing, and self destructive behavior. In short, degradation is destructive in its effect and for this reason alone it is undesirable as a tool for eliciting a submissive response. Yet some dominants insist on using it anyway. Speculating, it may be because it is the only method of dominating a submissive they know, but it may also be because they are simply a weak dominant. A degraded submissive is not particularly loyal and cannot be expected to be genuinely happy with their status. In fact, they are quite vulnerable and even receptive to outside influence that gradually rebuilds their self esteem and this may be enough to lure them away. As a reaction, some dominants using degradation as a tactic will attempt to isolate the submissive to prevent such influence. This is also usually accompanied by abuse and a downward, self destructive spiral that is not likely to end well for either the submissive or the dominant.


Humiliation as a tool is very different in its effects because it is not inherently negative or destructive. Using humiliation as a tool, a dominant can accomplish several things with regards to the submissive. First, as already stated, it can directly work to humble the submissive, a generally desirable attitude. Second, it teaches the submissive and reminds them about their status and place in the relationship, one of subservience to the dominant. Third, it is itself an expression of dominance which though the submissive may not enjoy the humiliating act, they do enjoy the expression of dominance it represents. In short, when humiliation play is used as a tool towards these goals it can be useful in establishing the roles within the relationship and reinforce them over time. Since humiliation does not attack the self worth of the submissive, their confidence also tends to remain intact. In some cases it may actually increase, as the submissive learns through being challenged by humiliating acts that they are capable of more than they had previously believed. Because the submissive is also not shamed by the humiliation, they don’t experience feelings of guilt or self loathing and are not thus made inclined towards self destructive acts. If the dominant also uses other methods to build the submissive’s self esteem, especially as a submissive, the result is a submissive that is happy in their role and willingly accepts the humiliation. Further, such a happy submissive is less susceptible to outside influences, and so there is no need to isolate them for fear of losing control over them.


An act does not need to be embarrassing to be considered humiliating in this context (typically embarrassment and humiliation are thought to be interconnected, but this is not always the case). Any act which succeeds in humbling the submissive has humiliated them, even if there is no feeling of embarrassment. For example a submissive who enjoys being locked in a cage may not consider that as humiliating because they do not feel any embarrassment from it. Yet if this activity reminds them of their status and role in the relationship, if it acts to alter their attitude to either keep them humble or to humble them, then it has succeeded as an act of humiliation.


Acts intended to be humiliating can unintentionally become acts of degradation if care is not taken. Not everyone reacts the same way to the same situations, but further, the same person may react differently under different circumstances. A submissive who enjoys being kept on a leash and treated as a pet as an act of humiliation may suddenly feel degraded if another person, say a family member for example, were to see them doing so. A wise dominant knows their submissive well enough to be aware of these factors and how the submissive is likely to react, and takes precautions to safeguard the submissive from situations which would turn the situation into one of degradation.


In addition to perspective there are some general factors that can separate acts which are humiliating from those which become degrading. For example, suppose a submissive is shackled, naked in a room and required to clean it. By itself there is nothing inherently harmful about this situation. A submissive might feel some embarrassment at her circumstance, particularly if this is her first experience with the circumstance. In short, in and of itself it is a mildly humiliating situation. The shackles remind the submissive her freedom is limited to what the dominant allows and can be restricted at any time. Being nude reminds her she is not entitled even to simple modesty, the dominant controls whether her body will be covered or exposed. Being assigned a menial task, such as cleaning, reminds her of her status and her subservient role. However, this same task which is mildly humiliating could become intensely degrading if the circumstances were changed. For example, if the submissive were told she were stupid, that such was all she was good for, if she were otherwise insulted in ways that questioned her self worth, her value as a submissive, her ability to serve, the circumstance would become degrading. Likewise, a submissive in the above circumstance who was suddenly being observed by friends of the dominant who began ogling her, taking photographs, and making lewd remarks might very well feel degraded, particularly if she were very uncomfortable with public nudity, were conscientious about her body, or had conservative values which made her feel such was morally wrong. Comparatively, a submissive lacking such inhibitions and especially one who enjoyed such attention (i.e., enjoyed exhibitionism, enjoyed verbal humiliation, enjoyed being photographed) might feel the same situation was merely humiliating and even enjoyable. Again, a emphasis must be stressed on the importance of a dominant knowing their submissive well enough to understand how they are likely to react to various situations and circumstances.


Degradation is, without question, destructive to the submissive. Its consequences are unhealthy and potentially disastrous to the relationship. As a tool to achieve dominance it is a weak form and unreliable, leaving the submissive more susceptible to outside influences that can destabilize the relationship. Humiliation as a tool can be useful in altering the submissives attitude without destroying their self esteem. It can be useful in establishing and reinforcing roles within the relationship. Combined with other positive methods, it can help produce a submissive that is happy in their relationship and their role and thus less susceptible to other influences, helping to make the relationship more stable. With an understanding of how to use humiliation as a tool, and the destructive nature of degradation, a dominant can work towards creating a better relationship and a more responsive submissive.


_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 12:59:07 PM   
slaveMomma


Posts: 15
Joined: 4/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willowheart

I hate humiliation, but I crave it.
I love it, though I fear it.
It is the underlying theme of my most powerful fantasties. It is my strength perfected in weakness. But more, it is His Strength perfected through my weaknesses.
It's alot like mental bondage to me.
I believe I can't do "whatever". I doubt. I resist. I explain. I state why -- sometimes a humilating thing in itself. I trust Him so I obey. Will I blush, perhaps? Or turn ghostly white and freeze..??? Will I plead for help?
But I will have most certainly survived,  perhaps even thrived because of it. And that's where W/we find another level of intimacy.

this is how i feel to a tee i crave it and fear it it pushes my boundaries but to please i do as asked

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 2:28:40 PM   
Takethiswaltz


Posts: 199
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
To Padriag:
 
Beautifully written, with clarity and sensibility.
I am new at this, but have read most everything.
I'm quite short on finding information these days that can answer my questions and satiate my curiosity.
This essay was like finding gold.
Thank you,
Tara

_____________________________

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in...

~Leonard Cohen~

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 2:56:01 PM   
MistressWolfen


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Well thought out and well written Pad....darn you are so much more than just a handsome face..LOL...seriously, excellent essay, thanks for sharing it.

_____________________________

Quoth the raven

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 4:17:35 PM   
slaveladyj


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Your answer here struck a chord in me. I see a lot of myself, my thoughts and feelings in this response.

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/2/2006 5:25:58 PM   
TolerableCruelty


Posts: 447
Joined: 2/4/2005
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SEAN !!!!!!!!

good to see you again, My friend... and wonderful to see you're as insightful and well worded as ever... hope to speak soon.

T.R.

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/3/2006 5:31:08 AM   
slaveofdarkhold


Posts: 124
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

It is a complex thing, speaking of the diamond that is the human mind; turn it slightly and you discover angles and shafts of light that defy the previous view. It is possible to like not liking something; and as contradictory and mysterious as that may seem, it is a reality for some minds.



That was beautifully phrased amayos

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RE: Humiliation??? - 5/3/2006 10:03:55 AM   
kittensmailbox


Posts: 744
Joined: 1/7/2005
From: Youngstown, Ohio
Status: offline
Even though i will never grib it, i will respect everyones different desires...  Thanks again for everyones post...

_____________________________

~softly smiles

~lowers her eyes in respect~

~kitten

(in reply to slaveofdarkhold)
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