Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships

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IceDemeter -> Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 11:47:21 AM)
A few threads and comments have me pondering on the concepts of "power", "authority", and "control", along with how these concepts work within the framework of D/s or M/s. In my perception, and in my life, I see these concepts as: "power" - the ability to do something (create a situation, perform an activity, etc.) - I see it as an active attribute "authority" - the right to do something - not so much an active attribute, but an underlying status "control" - the action of using the "power" in a situation where the "authority" exists Now, I would identity myself as "bottom" who is in a relationship that is more hanky-spanky than D/s or M/s. Looking at our relationship, he is definitely stronger than I am, physically, mentally, and emotionally. This does give him more "power" in our relationship. Hmmm - but does he have "authority"? Well - I have chosen to give him much authority over me. He has proven that he is better able than I am to choose goals beneficial to both of us and our relationship, and that he makes better decisions on how to reach those goals. As with any relationship, that "authority" can be revoked. In our case, as a relatively new relationship, we're still working out where the boundaries of the "authority" are, and movement of those boundaries will not necessarily put an end to the relationship. We're basically letting things happen organically, without a ton of discussion, or rules, or major introspection. As for "control" - so long as the "authority" exists, then he does have "control" over all aspects of our relationship that he chooses to. My perception of D/s is that the relationship could be fairly similar to ours, but more overtly defined. Both parties have the final veto power of walking away, but they have agreed that "authority" rests with the dominant party, who has the "control" of the relationship. I feel that there is still room here for negotiation of the boundaries of the "authority" without the relationship dissolving. My perception of M/s is that the room for negotiation is gone - that the only remaining "power" of the slave party is the final veto. Does this mean that the slave party has the final "power"? No - since both parties retain this final veto and can walk away from the M/s or D/s or the relationship entirely when they choose to. My perception is that either of these will have room for discussion, for input from both sides, for consideration of all information as to likes/dislikes/wants/needs, and for treating both sides in the manner that best suits both them and their relationship. As I mentioned, we're basically a typical vanilla pair with some kink and some conscious awareness of where the "authority", "power", and "control" fit in to our relationship. I am curious, however, as to how these concepts look to those who are in D/s or M/s relationships --- how they are the same and where they differ when looked at within the framework of their lives and perceptions. What are your thoughts?

Chulain -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 11:51:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IceDemeter Looking at our relationship, he is definitely stronger than I am, physically, mentally, and emotionally. This does give him more "power" in our relationship. Hmmm - but does he have "authority"? Well - I have chosen to give him much authority over me. I can but agree, whole-heartedly. quote: My perception of M/s is that the room for negotiation is gone - that the only remaining "power" of the slave party is the final veto. Does this mean that the slave party has the final "power"? No - since both parties retain this final veto and can walk away from the M/s or D/s or the relationship entirely when they choose to. But the slave is the one who always makes the decision whether to acquiesce or refuse. The final decision is in the slave's hands. That's why D/s slavery is not like non-consensual slavery.

DesFIP -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 12:34:41 PM)
Our relationship is like the op's. He's better at decision making in most arenas so he automatically takes the lead, if for some reason I disagree that's a sign that either I don't understand or he hasn't thought it through. Which serves as a good checks and balances to help him make good decisions. We're d/s and not m/s because he doesn't want me doing what he wants if I object. He wants me to tell him he's making a mistake before it's too late to fix it. However since it takes both of us to be here, he has to agree to take the lead and I have to agree to follow. I have always maintained that the ultimate power belongs to both, or either, of us. Because either of us could end it just as it took both of us to start the relationship.

LadyPact -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 12:41:05 PM)
My thought is that this is a very well written piece that is rather accurate from My view point. For it being a new relationship for you, I think you've got a pretty good grip on how it works for those involved.

Focus50 -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 12:43:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IceDemeter A few threads and comments have me pondering on the concepts of "power", "authority", and "control", along with how these concepts work within the framework of D/s or M/s. In my perception, and in my life, I see these concepts as: "power" - the ability to do something (create a situation, perform an activity, etc.) - I see it as an active attribute "authority" - the right to do something - not so much an active attribute, but an underlying status "control" - the action of using the "power" in a situation where the "authority" exists Now, I would identity myself as "bottom" who is in a relationship that is more hanky-spanky than D/s or M/s. Looking at our relationship, he is definitely stronger than I am, physically, mentally, and emotionally. This does give him more "power" in our relationship. Hmmm - but does he have "authority"? Well - I have chosen to give him much authority over me. He has proven that he is better able than I am to choose goals beneficial to both of us and our relationship, and that he makes better decisions on how to reach those goals. As with any relationship, that "authority" can be revoked. In our case, as a relatively new relationship, we're still working out where the boundaries of the "authority" are, and movement of those boundaries will not necessarily put an end to the relationship. We're basically letting things happen organically, without a ton of discussion, or rules, or major introspection. As for "control" - so long as the "authority" exists, then he does have "control" over all aspects of our relationship that he chooses to. My perception of D/s is that the relationship could be fairly similar to ours, but more overtly defined. Both parties have the final veto power of walking away, but they have agreed that "authority" rests with the dominant party, who has the "control" of the relationship. I feel that there is still room here for negotiation of the boundaries of the "authority" without the relationship dissolving. My perception of M/s is that the room for negotiation is gone - that the only remaining "power" of the slave party is the final veto. Does this mean that the slave party has the final "power"? No - since both parties retain this final veto and can walk away from the M/s or D/s or the relationship entirely when they choose to. My perception is that either of these will have room for discussion, for input from both sides, for consideration of all information as to likes/dislikes/wants/needs, and for treating both sides in the manner that best suits both them and their relationship. As I mentioned, we're basically a typical vanilla pair with some kink and some conscious awareness of where the "authority", "power", and "control" fit in to our relationship. I am curious, however, as to how these concepts look to those who are in D/s or M/s relationships --- how they are the same and where they differ when looked at within the framework of their lives and perceptions. What are your thoughts? I think you're overthinking what amounts to fairly simple concepts. I define (personal) power as that which makes you desirable to another. Anyone, and by that I mean ANYONE, who has something you desire has a certain power over you - a very simple fact of life. If I, as a Dom, walked into a room full of attractive women whereby one is submissive and the rest vanilla, all have some power (I did say "attractive") but the submissive has most by far. If all the other women were Dommes, than their power diminishes even more. Power is just like beauty; it's for the beholder to appreciate. In a D/s (or M/s) relationship, a submissive's power of desirability to my dominant self is what draws me to her. And I've been around long enough to know that I have dominant power that draws a submissive to me. This makes each person's personal power equal, which is how you make sense of the old bdsm term of "Power Exchange", or "PE". It basically amounts to the dynamic created when you form a personal relationship with another. Since power is of desirability, PE also defines vanilla and gay relationships, too. Cues D/s and M/s.... The theory of egalitarian (vanilla) relationships is that control and authority etc are equal, too. In D/s and M/s, it's agreed by both parties that control is unequal; that Dominant has control which submissive defers to.... Which in turn leads to authority. Mostly, I think "authority" serves only to convolute your reasoning. If one controls another by mutual consent (D/s or M/s), then 'authority' is a given.... One other thing.... In all my relationships, I've been much bigger and physically stronger than all my partners. It's easy to see or gauge. But mentally and emotionally? That's highly subjective. For eg, I don't like heights AT ALL, but snakes & spiders, dark nights, tight spaces and potentially violent confrontation etc doesn't phase me. Everyone has mental/emotional strengths and weaknesses - where do you even begin to calibrate them...? Focus.

RCdc -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 12:49:51 PM)
Control and Power are different to each of us and we both have our own which fluctuate at different times and over different things... Master likes it that way and they help make each of us who we are. The only real constant is authority, which Master has.

Prinsexx -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 2:15:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IceDemeter . In my perception, and in my life, I see these concepts as: "power" - the ability to do something (create a situation, perform an activity, etc.) - I see it as an active attribute "authority" - the right to do something - not so much an active attribute, but an underlying status "control" - the action of using the "power" in a situation where the "authority" exists I know there are three words and that therefore there are three concepts. But, on a night like this, when it is all so blissful, there doesn't seem the need to intellectualise the difference. When it's right it comes from somewhere else. It comes from the heart.

KnightofMists -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 3:05:42 PM)
quote: In my perception, and in my life, I see these concepts as: "power" - the ability to do something (create a situation, perform an activity, etc.) - I see it as an active attribute "authority" - the right to do something - not so much an active attribute, but an underlying status "control" - the action of using the "power" in a situation where the "authority" exists I generally share these basic definitions..... I like how you linked the three together. quote: Looking at our relationship, he is definitely stronger than I am, physically, mentally, and emotionally. This does give him more "power" in our relationship. Power is rather relative and subjective in my view. What motivates us to use power is of particular importance. If you are motivated towards some goal... the power you have to achieve that goal will be relative to that goal. If you desire to take someone for your sexual pleasure... the physical power you have in relation to the person is going to have significant influence. you might actually feel powerless in comparison, which does affect one's confidence and esteem. But... if you are are the one want to be over powered.... well lucky you! quote: Hmmm - but does he have "authority"? Well - I have chosen to give him much authority over me. He has proven that he is better able than I am to choose goals beneficial to both of us and our relationship, and that he makes better decisions on how to reach those goals. As with any relationship, that "authority" can be revoked. In our case, as a relatively new relationship, we're still working out where the boundaries of the "authority" are, and movement of those boundaries will not necessarily put an end to the relationship. We're basically letting things happen organically, without a ton of discussion, or rules, or major introspection. I can clearly understand and agree with your thoughts here... But.... sometimes the choice of giving authority is not a choice at all. It often starts that way... but sometimes not even then. For some... being who they are is the path towards well-being and happiness. To deny themselves is to deny their well-being and happiness. For some individuals... the awareness of being a slave is not so much a choice of giving over authority but a choice of being happy or not to be happy. In general, we as humans are actually physiologically driven towards happiness and well-being. We seek to survive and thrive! With the self-awareness of who a person is.... it becomes a moot point in choosing to give authority ... it's really a matter of choosing the right person to give it to. quote: As for "control" - so long as the "authority" exists, then he does have "control" over all aspects of our relationship that he chooses to. with authority the ability to control exists... but it doesn't denote that control exists in all aspects.... as you said... control is the action of using power.... unless action is taken... control is not occuring. I think this is where many relationships struggle... for that action of control... or as I like to call it... Exercising of Authority.... is lacking. The action is what is demonstrates the existence that power is real and not illusionary. That the authority is real and not illusionary. As some say... they want to feel the pull on the leash! This pull comes in a variety of ways for everyone. quote: My perception of D/s is that the relationship could be fairly similar to ours, but more overtly defined. Both parties have the final veto power of walking away, but they have agreed that "authority" rests with the dominant party, who has the "control" of the relationship. I feel that there is still room here for negotiation of the boundaries of the "authority" without the relationship dissolving. I tend to see D/s relationship where authority is limited by the will of one or both parties. Where the limitation orginates is unimportant... the limitation in of itself is what matters. quote: My perception of M/s is that the room for negotiation is gone - that the only remaining "power" of the slave party is the final veto. Does this mean that the slave party has the final "power"? No - since both parties retain this final veto and can walk away from the M/s or D/s or the relationship entirely when they choose to. I tend to see that Authority is a complete transfer from one to another. Though, in many cases the ability veto does exist for many... it is not an absolute... quote: My perception is that either of these will have room for discussion, for input from both sides, for consideration of all information as to likes/dislikes/wants/needs, and for treating both sides in the manner that best suits both them and their relationship. I would agree... but again.. this is not an absolute... some get into some pretty unhealthy situations and there is not much room for consideration for one by another. But... intend to see healthy relationships do have indeed have room for the discussions you speak of.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 3:27:11 PM)
great post IceDemeter! ^_^ quote: ORIGINAL: IceDemeter In my perception, and in my life, I see these concepts as: "power" - the ability to do something (create a situation, perform an activity, etc.) - I see it as an active attribute "authority" - the right to do something - not so much an active attribute, but an underlying status "control" - the action of using the "power" in a situation where the "authority" exists i like the way you've broken these down; i have to say i pretty much agree. quote: ORIGINAL: IceDemeter Hmmm - but does he have "authority"? Well - I have chosen to give him much authority over me. He has proven that he is better able than I am to choose goals beneficial to both of us and our relationship, and that he makes better decisions on how to reach those goals ...We're basically letting things happen organically, without a ton of discussion, or rules, or major introspection. As for "control" - so long as the "authority" exists, then he does have "control" over all aspects of our relationship that he chooses to. for me, i think that's basically how these relationships (D/s or M/s) start -- it's a conscious choice to give the authority to one member of the relationship, even if that choice is simply acknowledging and acting on the desire to seek out submission. when i met my former M, i didn't feel that i was actively making a choice to submit, it was pretty natural with him, but i WAS actively choosing to continue engaging him. there were times when i got scared or felt weird about what we were doing, because it went against other conventions i'd been taught, but every day i still sought him out. I think organic progression is really healthy and it's the way i prefer things to go -- the people define the relationship, rather than letting the relationship and roles and assumptions and stereotypes define them. quote: ORIGINAL: IceDemeter My perception of D/s is that the relationship could be fairly similar to ours, but more overtly defined. Both parties have the final veto power of walking away, but they have agreed that "authority" rests with the dominant party, who has the "control" of the relationship. I feel that there is still room here for negotiation of the boundaries of the "authority" without the relationship dissolving. My perception of M/s is that the room for negotiation is gone - that the only remaining "power" of the slave party is the final veto. Does this mean that the slave party has the final "power"? No - since both parties retain this final veto and can walk away from the M/s or D/s or the relationship entirely when they choose to. i have to say i agree with your perceptions here, too. ^_^ i think this is why i see things as a "sliding scale" of submission. i know not everyone sees it that way, but it just makes more sense to me that way. my relationship with M leaned strongly towards M/s, but we used "D/s" as the label because he just didn't like using M/s terminology. =p labels are funny because on one hand they DO mean something, and on the other hand, they mean whatever the people using them want them to mean. but in general, i agree with your perceptions. I also like how you point out that the slave in M/s does not have the "final" power. Each person has the ability to walk away, and many slaves don't feel they have any such power anyway. It's also fairly common in sub-women circles to hear "you're the one who REALLY has the power," because of (what i feel is) over-emphasis on safewords, others telling you to run for the hills any time a D/M makes a human mistake, and phrases like "strength in submission" being applied to bratty behavior and things like that. i do believe there is strength in submission, but i don't believe (non-consensual) bratting or constantly testing boundaries is the way to show it. these kinds of relationships are ultimately really about give-and-take, because each party provides the environment for the other to be whoever they are. it's hard to be a Master without a slave, and hard to be a slave without a Master. each party is just as necessary to the relationship. quote: ORIGINAL: IceDemeter My perception is that either of these will have room for discussion, for input from both sides, for consideration of all information as to likes/dislikes/wants/needs, and for treating both sides in the manner that best suits both them and their relationship. and i agree with you here, too -- each relationship has the potential to have the room for input and discussion and consideration on both sides. some people consent to give away this right, but others agree between themselves that each party will keep it. many Ds/Ms want input from their s-types; many are seen as confidants, someone to bounce ideas off of -- it just depends on the dynamic established between whatever two (or more) people are involved in a relationship with each other. again, nice post, IceDemeter ^_^

Chulain -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 4:47:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCdc The only real constant is authority, which Master has. Even that is not a constant, because he only wields authority over as long as you allow him to do so. That might wind up being until the day you die, but you always have the right to no longer submit to his authority.

allthatjaz -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 4:54:55 PM)
Great thread and one I could really get my teeth into. The two words here that jump out at me are ‘authority and power’ because its these two things that are dependant on a dominants strengths and competencies. A dominant may think he has control & power but without authority he has neither power nor control and without competency he won’t be able to hold his authority for long. So you can have authority without having control but you cannot have control without authority. The potential to exercise control within this lifestyle can only happen if the dominant is perceived as being a person of authority and power. Perhaps virtues such as being motivational, competent, have leadership qualities, the ability to be inspirational, structured, consistent, has a clear sense of purpose and I think just as importantly is optimistic and the reason I say that is, very few pessimists have the ability to lead. He perhaps also needs the ability to encourage and nurture. All of these things give him authority and the ability to seek compliance. One of the other things he needs is charisma within that authority but that will come naturally if he is a comfortable leader. Only his power gives him the real ability to influence and make you desire to cooperate. So who really has the power? the dominant who inspires the submissive with his/her authority.

Chulain -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 5:07:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz One of the other things he needs is charisma Ooo, I gots acres of that. Sign me up for Dom of the Year.

osf -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 6:38:53 PM)
I would add responsibility authority can be delegated but one has to assume responsibility to exercise that authority in a sense the power is held by the one most willing to leave the relationship

KnightofMists -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 6:40:01 PM)
quote: So who really has the power? the dominant who inspires the submissive with his/her authority. of course.... there is the flip side that the submissive must be of a quality that the Dominant would even bother to desire for their own. Maybe .... just maybe.... it's dance where each brings their own qualities that make the dance unique for themselves by the mutual attraction. They both are distinctly different before such a dance... but together... they become something completey different and new. They are parts of a whole.... a whole that is more than the sum of the parts.... more a product of the parts is what one sees as they dance.

IceDemeter -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 6:54:55 PM)
Thank you all for your responses - you've definitely given me more to ponder! I so much appreciate your thoughts and your eloquence in explaining your views. A few things that jumped out at me for further ponderment (is that a word?): - that one has to agree to lead before the other can agree to follow - the idea of desirability as power - the movement of power and control within a relationship, while authority stays with one - that the giving or receiving of authority isn't necessarily a conscious choice, but more a natural statement of a personality - that having the authority may not be enough - both parties may need the Exercise of Authority for the relationship to work for them, where the action of "control" is a required part of their partnership - the potential for issues if the focus is on the "safeword" and "play" instead of on the overall relationship - how a relationship can naturally move from one "definition" to another (a dance - great analogy!) I generally don't overthink my relationships, but I do try to stay conscious of my own motivations. Taking a peek from another's viewpoint is always educational, especially when they bring so many differences to the table. Thank you all again! edited to add (since your post snuck in while I was typing) --- responsibility absolutely should be a part of it, and thanks for the reminder!

KnightofMists -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 6:59:05 PM)
awareness, acceptance, actualization... and back to awareness again.... a cycle of learning and growing.... when you stop the cycle... you stop the learning and growth. Thank you for a great thread....

IceDemeter -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 7:00:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists awareness, acceptance, actualization... and back to awareness again.... a cycle of learning and growing.... when you stop the cycle... you stop the learning and growth. And where would be the fun in that?!?

KnightofMists -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 7:10:03 PM)
quote: And where would be the fun in that?!? don't know... but it's amazing how many people actually stop

Chulain -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (1/31/2011 7:56:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IceDemeter I generally don't overthink my relationships, but I do try to stay conscious of my own motivations. Taking a peek from another's viewpoint is always educational, especially when they bring so many differences to the table. If there's a place to have intellectual discussions about such things, this is it.

allthatjaz -> RE: Pondering on power, authority, and control in relationships (2/1/2011 2:28:24 AM)
I don't think its a case of over thinking anything, at least for me its a fascinating bit of human psychology. Thinking things through aids in the cycle of learning and growing and like KnightsofMists has already said, lots of people STOP. All relationships take effort on both sides. Its a myth that a happy relationship is born in heaven, its born from conscious choices and part of those conscious choices are made through reasoning and acceptance. I agree with KnightsofMist that this is a dance of two individuals coming together. It was worded so well that if I had hairs on the back of my neck they would of stood up! Responsibility is of course crucial because without responsibility there is no core, no basis to start a relationship. Of course the power is in the hands of the one who is willing to get up and walk and sadly we read again and again from dissatisfied people who are ready to walk away from a relationship. What I find more interesting is the couple who strongly desire to stay together. Why? what is it that they have, they did are doing that has made this come together so beautifully? Why does the dance flow so perfectly for not one but two or in KnightsofMists case three people? There has to be a huge amount of mutual attraction but mutual attraction can fade if all the other things mentioned so far in this thread don't flow.

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