With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise?

With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/10/2011 2:55:14 PM)
Coroner: Pa. natural gas explosion kills 5 people quote: ALLENTOWN, Pa. – A natural gas explosion rocked a downtown neighborhood overnight, killing five people, leveling two houses and spawning fires that burned for hours through an entire row of neighboring homes. Lehigh County Coroner Scott Grim said Thursday that all but one body had been recovered from the debris. The victims ranged in age from 4 months to 79 years old, fire Chief Robert Scheirer said. The day before the explosion, a routine leak-detection check of the gas main that serves the area found no problems, said Joe Swope of Reading-based UGI Utilities Inc. The main dates to 1928. Last month in Philadelphia, a gas main explosion caught on video sent a 50-foot fireball into the sky, killing a utility worker, injuring six people and forcing dozens from their homes. Fire officials were investigating that blast. And last September, eight were killed, dozens injured and 55 homes left uninhabitable when a gas pipeline in California exploded. source At current estimates, it would take $400 billion dollars over ten years to bring the infrastructure in the US up to standard. This estimates covers bridges, hiways, dams, pipelines as well as other projects. Considering the jobs that would directly be created by the projects, as well as the millions of jobs created in the industries that provide supplies for these kinds of contracts, it seems to be a no brainer. The question is, why wont either party even suggest it?

willbeurdaddy -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/10/2011 3:01:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Coroner: Pa. natural gas explosion kills 5 people quote: ALLENTOWN, Pa. – A natural gas explosion rocked a downtown neighborhood overnight, killing five people, leveling two houses and spawning fires that burned for hours through an entire row of neighboring homes. Lehigh County Coroner Scott Grim said Thursday that all but one body had been recovered from the debris. The victims ranged in age from 4 months to 79 years old, fire Chief Robert Scheirer said. The day before the explosion, a routine leak-detection check of the gas main that serves the area found no problems, said Joe Swope of Reading-based UGI Utilities Inc. The main dates to 1928. Last month in Philadelphia, a gas main explosion caught on video sent a 50-foot fireball into the sky, killing a utility worker, injuring six people and forcing dozens from their homes. Fire officials were investigating that blast. And last September, eight were killed, dozens injured and 55 homes left uninhabitable when a gas pipeline in California exploded. source At current estimates, it would take $400 billion dollars over ten years to bring the infrastructure in the US up to standard. This estimates covers bridges, hiways, dams, pipelines as well as other projects. Considering the jobs that would directly be created by the projects, as well as the millions of jobs created in the industries that provide supplies for these kinds of contracts, it seems to be a no brainer. The question is, why wont either party even suggest it? That most of what you name are State/local government or private concerns, not Federal, might have something to do with it.

mnottertail -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/10/2011 3:01:44 PM)
Listening to the COO of the US Chamber of Commerce interviewed on NPR, a week or so ago, he was bemoaning the fact that one of the biggest problems for business in the US today and certainly far more vast in the future is the crumbling of infrastructure and its outdatedness. It ain't like everybody and their uncle don't know it.

jlf1961 -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/10/2011 3:13:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy That most of what you name are State/local government or private concerns, not Federal, might have something to do with it. Actually, Dams, bridges, interstate pipelines, levees, canal and river locks and dams are under the authority of the Army Corps of Engineers who inspect the systems. The Corps of Engineers also award the contracts to work on these projects. The Interstate Hiway and US hiway system is FEDERALLY funded and the funds are administered by the state. The states only fund state hiways, and Farm to market roads, the county is only responsible for county roads, both paved and unpaved. The $400 billion dollar cost is only for those projects that are federally funded, or under the inspection and control of the Army Corps of Engineers. So, what is the excuse now?

willbeurdaddy -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/10/2011 3:49:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy That most of what you name are State/local government or private concerns, not Federal, might have something to do with it. Actually, Dams, bridges, interstate pipelines, levees, canal and river locks and dams are under the authority of the Army Corps of Engineers who inspect the systems. The Corps of Engineers also award the contracts to work on these projects. The Interstate Hiway and US hiway system is FEDERALLY funded and the funds are administered by the state. The states only fund state hiways, and Farm to market roads, the county is only responsible for county roads, both paved and unpaved. The $400 billion dollar cost is only for those projects that are federally funded, or under the inspection and control of the Army Corps of Engineers. So, what is the excuse now? Actually SOME of things you name are under the authority of the ACE, others arent. I dont know about the $400 billion in projects you are talking about specifically. You may look for an answer to your question in one of Obama's recent speeches where he said that (paraphrasing, but nearly a quote) "I learned that there is no such thing as shovel ready projects".

jlf1961 -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/10/2011 4:46:52 PM)
Willbe, That $400 billion estimate is from the GAO, per the findings of the ACE inspections of bridges, dams, levees, canal and river locks and per the inspections of the conditions of US and Interstate hiways. And that is ONLY for those items listed as substandard or dangerous. The cost for bringing the entire infrastructure system up to standard is considerably higher. The $400 billion does not address waste water treatment, solid waste treatment, drinking water improvements (replace aging systems,) Toxic waste cleanup (federal funding for super fund cleanups dropped to 1.08 billion in 2008) National park facilities, railroad improvement, or energy distribution, or the 85% of state and publicly owned levees on the nations rivers. The current estimates to maintain and bring up to acceptable standard is available on a few websites. To bring the electric distribution grid up to standard, the projected electric utility investment needs could be as much as $1.5 trillion by 2030. The American Society of Civil Engineers estimates of needed spending per year. You are right to point out that the maintenance of the infrastructure is not just a Federal problem, it is also a state and local problem. However the states and local governments have a wonderful habit of applying for federal funds, grants etc to do this work. I agree that state and local governments are strapped for cash. However, I will also make the statement that if something is not done soon, the US will be little better than a third world country when it comes to the infrastructure.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/10/2011 5:12:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 However, I will also make the statement that if something is not done soon, the US will be little better than a third world country when it comes to the infrastructure. We agree. We just dont agree on who needs to pay for it and who needs to do it.

pahunkboy -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/10/2011 8:19:16 PM)
At least we have power and gas. -just sayn-

Termyn8or -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/11/2011 12:37:22 AM)
FR Now that y'all are talking more specific here; No matter what, that money is going to come from us. It doesn't matter all that much which agency actually writes the checks, all the money comes from the same place. We are in a position now where our military is spread throughout the world keeping peace supposedly, whether they want it or not. This must stop or at least be curtailed. This would present a problem as soldiers join the "work" force. There are already not enough jobs to go around. But...... Say we pull back, close some bases, maybe only 50 of them or so. Here we have a bunch of Men who are strong, able and willing to work. Guarantee them jobs (if they keep them is up to them). Like, many ex soldiers work for the post office. Why the hiring preference is not my concern, but this could be the same. Remember for a long time the postal service was largely self sufficient. You get some people who can actually work and follow instructions, you might be on to something. This would not be a severe budget cut, except to the military itself. Constitutionally they should have to retire from the service, but that's 'should'. I don't think we should house them in barracks and all that. It's a job, one that they could probably perform efficiently. No more awarding contracts to the highest bidder (yes, I mean that instead of the lowest). Overseas support levels would drop, and that would probably be the only real savings, but we would be getting the infrastructure fixed. This would probably be a good move, because we need alot more than most think. Major cities are crumbling, and are inhabited and evacuating them is not an option. Just the sewer system, I could tell you about that more than I'd like. And on the supply side, water and gas leaks are no joke. A water main break flooded about eight basements on this street, and it's a dead end at the top of a hill ! Let's not even go into the fact that so many power and telecommunication lines are draped all over up in the air, when it's obvious they should be buried. Even the cost of materials is staggering, but labor overshadows it hands down. This would be like cutting out the middleman. Some people would have jobs which would obviously stimulate the economy. This would be real stimulus, not a friggin check for a couple grand that is spent on plasma TVs the next day and winds up in China. Don't forget if Tom, Dick and Harry construction rebuilds this country, we pay for everything, plus we make Tom, Dick and Harry rich. If we pay for something in Germany, Iraq or bumfuct Egypt we still pay. Why not pay for it here ? I know why. And that's why it'll never happen, never be run right unless something happens. T^T

Marc2b -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/11/2011 7:20:27 AM)
quote: Actually, Dams, bridges, interstate pipelines, levees, canal and river locks and dams are under the authority of the Army Corps of Engineers who inspect the systems. The Corps of Engineers also award the contracts to work on these projects. Just for the record: not all of them. The Erie Canal is under the authority of the New York State Canal Corporation which is a subsidiary of the New State Thruway Authority. Last I heard the Army Corp of Engineers maintained only one set of locks near the Hudson River end of things.

Elisabella -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/11/2011 7:49:24 AM)
Termyn8or I think that's the first post you made that actually makes sense.

pahunkboy -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/11/2011 8:06:34 AM)
Term is a gem. We will keep him another year. :-) He is correct on the prevailing wage rule. A snow storm of a few inches cripples the country. I doubt we will get a new infrastructure in our lifetime.

Termyn8or -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/12/2011 10:08:26 PM)
"Termyn8or I think that's the first post you made that actually makes sense." Actually it's one of which you can make sense. People who's brains seem to operate on disonant wavelengths must be ready for that. Misunderstanding. Unfortunately making sense is not very popular these days. T^T

Termyn8or -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/12/2011 10:17:58 PM)
"He is correct on the prevailing wage rule." Huh ? You might have me confused with someone else. The only thing I remember asserting is that the wage is inversely proportional to the pool of workers able to do the work. Anything more expounded on that. Find a quote or something to jog my memory. Or, like I said you might have mixed me up with someone else. And I am not going through over 9,000 posts to find it. I'm having a hard enough time getting my system straightened out. Directories, this and that. If I got headaches I'm sure I'd have one. T^T

truckinslave -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/18/2011 8:01:04 AM)
We just gave 0bama0 double that, more or less. never again.

jlf1961 -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/18/2011 10:26:25 AM)
I sure as hell dont see the Refuckalans coming up with some jobs plan. All they have done is have symbolic votes to repeal health reform and other bullshit. Where are the jobs they promised?

Moonhead -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/18/2011 12:00:13 PM)
In Asia, mostly.

jlf1961 -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/18/2011 12:02:46 PM)
Yeah, look at all the big money the Repubs got from companies that have outsourced jobs, and they say they are going to create jobs in the US, bullshit.

KenDckey -> RE: With the state of the Infrastructure in the US, is this really a surprise? (2/18/2011 2:54:34 PM)
One infrastructure project that I am acutely aware of cost $300 million. it raised the capacity of one wastewater treatement plant from 55 MGD to 85 MGD (million gallons per day). It covered new facilities needed. At the time of completion the system was processing approximately 73 MGD. They provided primary and secondary treatment and ponded the secondary effliuent on approximately 5 square miles of land. The water was percolated into the ground and pumped back out at about 600 feet to irrigate non-human consuming ag products. The pipeline cost to get this raw sewage to the plant was not includedd but cost approximately $1 million a mile. of the73 MGD there were approximately 30 18wheeler trucks required to carry away the solids (after digestion) and 1 large dump truck to carry away the trash on a daily basis. The solid waste was combined with the municipal green waste to make composted potting soil (when you look at the bag the sludge from the plant is called biowaste) which could be resold. this also required a huge amount of acreage and specialized equipment not covered in the $300 million. The methane gas created during the digestion of the feces was used to generate electricity which covered only 1/3 of the amount required to operate the plant. The plant was required to begin planning for the next expansion (including the purchase of more ag land for ponding basins) as soon as that phase of construction was completed. Needless to say, the ratepayers paid for that with an increase in rates which were destined to grow. The entire project is funded, not by the General Fund, but through 100% sewer rates. The composting to create the potting soil, is also a money losing proposition. The biosolids have to be Grade A and you have to pay to have sorters go through the municipal greenwaste because people don't like seperating their trash. It also takes three garbage trucks (the one arm bandits) to pick up the trash weekly (one for each type of trash - garbage, recycle, and greenwaste). Statistics showed that they produced about two gallons of water for every gallon of wastewater (the rest went to lawn irrigation etc). Wastewater is what goes down the drain in the sink or shower and toilet. Rainwater goes into a different system and requires other facilities to process. That is one municipality. If they had to increase the treatment of the wastewater to tirceary treatment, the cost would greately increase. If they didn't (and not many do) generate electricity using the methane which is produced by the sludge, then the costs would be greately increased. BTW next time you get a chance go visit a treatment plant it is really interesting.

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