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KenDckey -> DOMA is dead (2/25/2011 3:02:10 PM)

SOURCE:  http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-02-24/defense-of-marriage-act-obamas-gay-marriage-backfire/

President declares a law unconstitutional and refuses to fight on.   Essentially this is what has happened with the Defense of Marriage Act.  

A judge at the lowest level determined the DOMA to be unconstitutional.   The President said OK.   That is enough.   We fought for it.   We lost.   We didn’t like the law anyway and it wasn’t deserving of a fight.   The essence to me is that the POTUS declared the law unconstitutional and therefore failed to meet the standard normally required of the POTUS to defend to the best of their ability (even when they disagree) a law enacted by the Congress and signed into law.

I believe this sets a terrible precedence.   It is like the one set by Andrew Jackson in forcing the “Trail of Tears” march of native Americans out of GA where SCOTUS said it was unconstitutional.

Are we sure that this is the power of the POTUS?   All it takes is to find a judge to throw over a law and then the POTUS to say, well to bad for us.   I didn’t like it anyway and not continue the fight?   

I say no.   Don’t ever allow this to happen.   The side of DOMA that you stand on, this is way to powerful for any POTUS.   If that is allowed to stand, all we have to do is wait, find a Republican to run for Pres and win and then a judge to rule the healthcare law is unconstitutional and that is the end of that.

 




mnottertail -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/25/2011 3:06:05 PM)

We have a differing understanding of the essence.  I can't get behind this at all, it is nothing in the scheme of things when considering presidential power.




jlf1961 -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/25/2011 3:40:14 PM)

A law that defines marriage as being between a man and woman, thus denying the same recognition for gays, lesbians and transgendered people.

Great law, totally denies the same rights to a good portion of the US population.




eihwaz -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/25/2011 4:09:35 PM)

POTUS will no longer defend the law against constitutional challenge, but will continue to enforce it. While rare, such stances by POTUS are not without precedent:

In the case of Metro Broadcasting, Inc. v. Federal Communications Commission, 497 U.S. 547 (1990), Acting Solicitor General John G. Roberts declined to defend the constitutionality of certain statutes requiring minority preferences in broadcast licensing and, in fact, urged the Court to declare them unconstitutional.  (SCOTUS rejected Acting SG Roberts's arguments by a 5-4 vote.)

United States v. Lovett (328 U.S. 303 (1946).  The SG, representing the United States as defendant, nonetheless joined with those who argued that a particular statute was an unconstitutional bill of attainder.  (The SCOTUS agreed.)

INS v. Chadha (462 U.S. 919 (1983).  Pursuant to a provision of the Immigration and Nationality Act, the INS implemented a "one house veto" of the House of Representatives that ordered the INS to overturn its suspension of Chadha's suspension.  Nonetheless, the INS -- represented by the SG -- argued that the one house veto provision was unconstitutional.

Morrison v. Olson (487 U.S. 654 (1988).  Pursuant to the Ethics in Government Act of 1978, the AG requested appointment of an independent counsel to investigate possible wrongdoing by a Department official.  The SG appeared before the SCOTUS as amicus curiae to argue that the independent counsel provisions of the Act violated the constitutional separation of powers.

Simkins v. Moses H. Cone Memorial Hospital (323 F.2d 959 4th Circuit, 1963).  A federal statute permitted the Surgeon General to condition federal funding for hospital construction on assurance of an applying State that the hospital facilities in question did not discriminate on account of race.  However, the statute also explicitly instructed the Surgeon General to make an exception to this requirement where discrimination was accompanied by so-called "separate but equal" hospital facilities for all races.  The Surgeon General subsequently approved funding under the statute for hospitals which were openly discriminatory.  The DoJ intervened on behalf of the United States in a private class action brought by black physicians, dentists, and patients against the hospitals, and joined the plaintiffs in arguing against the constitutionality of the statute.

Turner Broadcasting Svs. Inc. v FCC (93-94, 512 U.S. 622, 1994).  Sections 4 and 5 of the Cable Television Consumer Protection and Competition Act of 1992 (the "must carry" provisions) require cable operators to carry on their systems a prescribed number of signals of local commercial and qualified noncommercial stations.  The Act was enacted over President George H.W. Bush's veto.  The President stated that one of the reasons for his veto was that the must carry provisions were unconstitutional.  In subsequent litigation challenging the constitutionality of the must carry provisions, the DoJ declined to defend the their constitutionality "consistent with President Bush's veto message to Congress."








ETA correct typos
ETA case citations





joether -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/25/2011 4:27:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
SOURCE:  http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-02-24/defense-of-marriage-act-obamas-gay-marriage-backfire/

President declares a law unconstitutional and refuses to fight on.   Essentially this is what has happened with the Defense of Marriage Act.  

A judge at the lowest level determined the DOMA to be unconstitutional.   The President said OK.   That is enough.   We fought for it.   We lost.   We didn’t like the law anyway and it wasn’t deserving of a fight.   The essence to me is that the POTUS declared the law unconstitutional and therefore failed to meet the standard normally required of the POTUS to defend to the best of their ability (even when they disagree) a law enacted by the Congress and signed into law.

I believe this sets a terrible precedence.   It is like the one set by Andrew Jackson in forcing the “Trail of Tears” march of native Americans out of GA where SCOTUS said it was unconstitutional.

Are we sure that this is the power of the POTUS?   All it takes is to find a judge to throw over a law and then the POTUS to say, well to bad for us.   I didn’t like it anyway and not continue the fight?   

I say no.   Don’t ever allow this to happen.   The side of DOMA that you stand on, this is way to powerful for any POTUS.   If that is allowed to stand, all we have to do is wait, find a Republican to run for Pres and win and then a judge to rule the healthcare law is unconstitutional and that is the end of that.


How about that 'Assault Weapons Ban' that was lifted under the George W. Bush Administration a few years ago? Republicans didn't like that law when it went in to effect. And during a Republican administration, they allowed the matter to drop (big 'Hurray' from the NRA).

If you don't like the president's action, that's your right as an American. I believe DOMA was a bad law to begin with. It did not address why marriages were failing, but the fear of why they were failing: gay people wanted to marry. It sounds completely silly of an arguement, and yet, that is the truth of the conservative agenda: ignore reality in favor of fantasy land. If it doesn't exist in fantasy land, it can't exist in reality. In fantasy land, Sarah Palin is President.

Last I checked, 'marriage' is a legal concept in this country, not just a religious one. Hence, DOMA became at immediate odds with many laws currently on the books, including the US Constitution (naming how 'all persons are treated under the law' concept).




KenDckey -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/25/2011 6:30:15 PM)

Haven't heard of the other precidents, but that is ok.   At least we know that if the President decides that something should be dropped, all he has to do is find a judge to do the deed and then not defend it.   That could be the out to Obamacare.   Especially if Obama gets his way to slow down the judicial process.




Real0ne -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/25/2011 10:36:27 PM)


ponder this :)

literally all legislated law is unconstitutional....

then to con-volute it even more we can get into legal versus lawful




KenDckey -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/25/2011 11:44:36 PM)

Real   I have also heard it said that all legislated law is common law.




joether -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/26/2011 1:15:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Haven't heard of the other precidents, but that is ok.   At least we know that if the President decides that something should be dropped, all he has to do is find a judge to do the deed and then not defend it.   That could be the out to Obamacare.   Especially if Obama gets his way to slow down the judicial process.


Can you present valid and verifiable evidence that shows the President actually did this? Last I checked, the President does not have the power to directly affect the courts. Otherwise, no one would be able to challenge the Affordable Care Act until Mr. Obama leaves office in 2016.

If any one president did his best to slow down the judicial process, it was under the George W. Bush Administration. Unless you want to try convincing me that the administration did not conduct fearmongering to get its way in the courts?




KenDckey -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/26/2011 5:43:09 AM)

Come on Joe   Remember.   The State of Virginia wants to go from District Court to SCOTUS and Obama wants it to go thru the Appeals Court.   The Slowdown.   Yes I will agree that it is the norm to go thru the Appelas Court, but not unheard of to go straight to SCOTUS..   Now, if it delays long enough in appeals, which can take years, then there is a possibility that it the next POTUS (assuming that in 2012 we get one that doesn't agree with Obamacare) could just drop it at District Level.   Or withdraw it from the SCOTUS docket.  

And yes, I do believe that a POTUS can affect how fast things move thru the court system.   Otherwise we would have had Bush as President Still, while trying to decide the question of the election.  Motion, upon motion, upon motion to slow things down.   The use of the legal system to win thru default.  






tazzygirl -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/26/2011 6:20:51 AM)

Gee, I always thought the SC liked to hear the opinions and read the arguments of lower courts before deciding whether to take up a case.

Has the Court ruled on the request yet?




rulemylife -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/26/2011 6:24:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Come on Joe   Remember.   The State of Virginia wants to go from District Court to SCOTUS and Obama wants it to go thru the Appeals Court.   The Slowdown.   Yes I will agree that it is the norm to go thru the Appelas Court, but not unheard of to go straight to SCOTUS.


Then let's hear about it.




tazzygirl -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/26/2011 6:27:17 AM)

Am I wrong in thinking Obama can ask all he wants, but its the SC's decision?




rulemylife -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/26/2011 6:40:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Am I wrong in thinking Obama can ask all he wants, but its the SC's decision?


U.S. Supreme Court Procedures

The Constitution states that the Supreme Court has both original and appellate jurisdiction. Original jurisdiction means that the Supreme Court is the first, and only, Court to hear a case. The Constitution limits original jurisdiction cases to those involving disputes between the states or disputes arising among ambassadors and other high-ranking ministers. Appellate jurisdiction means that the Court has the authority to review the decisions of lower courts. Most of the cases the Supreme Court hears are appeals from lower courts.







joether -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/26/2011 6:50:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Come on Joe   Remember.   The State of Virginia wants to go from District Court to SCOTUS and Obama wants it to go thru the Appeals Court.   The Slowdown.   Yes I will agree that it is the norm to go thru the Appelas Court, but not unheard of to go straight to SCOTUS..   Now, if it delays long enough in appeals, which can take years, then there is a possibility that it the next POTUS (assuming that in 2012 we get one that doesn't agree with Obamacare) could just drop it at District Level.   Or withdraw it from the SCOTUS docket.  

And yes, I do believe that a POTUS can affect how fast things move thru the court system.   Otherwise we would have had Bush as President Still, while trying to decide the question of the election.  Motion, upon motion, upon motion to slow things down.   The use of the legal system to win thru default.  


I believe you understand the importance of the Appeals Court. If people could just go from the lower courts straight to the Supreme Court, by passing the Appeals Court, would they? And would that that accomplish that is good for America? By slowing things down, it sometimes defuses the really deep and passionate types who would normally 'fly right off the handle' if the SCOTUS gave an unfavorable verdict.

In our form of goverment, we have the courts set up, so that only the most pressing issues go to the Supreme Court, not some clueless moron whom feels we should all be speaking Vulcan cus is in love with Spock (not Leonard Nimoy....the character). In some matters, things will get bumped up to the Supreme Court rather quickly and/or a matter presented to the SCOTUS because of the issue/event at hand.

Your correct that the President has some leaverage with the different branchs of goverment. Its a benefit when the President's politics agree with you, and a major hinderance/annoyance when it does not. But he himself, is not doing anything different then what is set down in the rules governing how a case is presented and appealled to a higher ruling. The man is a Constitutional Lawyer.....He 'might' know something about our form of goverment.




KenDckey -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/26/2011 8:46:49 AM)

Is ok Joe   I hope you win.    I hope that it goes thru the Appeal system all the way.   i also hope that the State of Virginia and the 16 states that won their battle in Florida go thru the appeal system and that they submit enough motions and other delaying tactics to keep Obamacare going in the appeals court until we get a Republican President who says OK guys, We (the Fed) aren't going to fight for it any longer and dismiss the Fed's appeal.   You win.






DarkSteven -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/26/2011 9:01:43 AM)

quote:

o
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

SOURCE:  http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-02-24/defense-of-marriage-act-obamas-gay-marriage-backfire/

President declares a law unconstitutional and refuses to fight on.   Essentially this is what has happened with the Defense of Marriage Act.  

A judge at the lowest level determined the DOMA to be unconstitutional.   The President said OK.   That is enough.   We fought for it.   We lost.   We didn’t like the law anyway and it wasn’t deserving of a fight.   The essence to me is that the POTUS declared the law unconstitutional and therefore failed to meet the standard normally required of the POTUS to defend to the best of their ability (even when they disagree) a law enacted by the Congress and signed into law.

I believe this sets a terrible precedence.   It is like the one set by Andrew Jackson in forcing the “Trail of Tears” march of native Americans out of GA where SCOTUS said it was unconstitutional.

Are we sure that this is the power of the POTUS?   All it takes is to find a judge to throw over a law and then the POTUS to say, well to bad for us.   I didn’t like it anyway and not continue the fight?   

I say no.   Don’t ever allow this to happen.   The side of DOMA that you stand on, this is way to powerful for any POTUS.   If that is allowed to stand, all we have to do is wait, find a Republican to run for Pres and win and then a judge to rule the healthcare law is unconstitutional and that is the end of that.



This is not a simple issue and requires an understanding of how the separation of powers works.

The President has no standing in this matter.  What he meant is that he will direct the DOJ to not appeal the lower court decision.

No President "finds a judge" to take their view.  If either side loses a case, President or not, they have the right to appeal.  That said, they need to find grounds on which to appeal.  They also always retain the right to NOT appeal, and Obama is exercising that right.

This is actually the way that the system is supposed to work.  The Congress and Senate pass a law, and the President signs it (or else his veto is overridden).  Once it becomes law, then the courts are tasked with how it is interpreted.  At one extreme, they accept it as written, and at the other extreme they overturn it because it conflicts with the Constitution.  And sometimes they allow portions and disallow others.  The idea is that there are several gates that a law must pass through, which lessens the chance that something really horrible will get through the system.




tazzygirl -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/26/2011 11:16:36 AM)

Surely you are not equating a law that prevents gay marriage to the health care law, correct?




KenDckey -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/26/2011 1:08:58 PM)

No   I am saying that if they can make one go away by discontinuing the appeal process, then it is within the realm of possibility that healthcare or any other issue for that matter can just go away by discontinuing the appeals process.   I call it bad government, no matter who does it.  The only plus I see about making DOMA disappear this way is the money savings defending it.

Thanks Steven.  You have summarized my thinking very well.   Problem is, when the Pres exercises his right to not appeal, then it opens up other possibilities that the people may not like.   I believe they should continue to appeal (the law that the congress passed and the POTUS signed immaterial).   otherwise they are playing politics with the will of the people as expressed by their representatives.  The POTUS time to disagree with a law is at signature, not when we get a new POTUS.




DarkSteven -> RE: DOMA is dead (2/26/2011 1:27:51 PM)

Uh. no.

1. You are assuming that the will of the people is monolithic.  A lot can happen between when a bill is signed into law and it is challenged.
2. You are also assuming that the will of the people IS expressed by the representatives.  Check into TARP if you still believe that.  Bush and Paulson stampeded Congress into believing that the entire economic fabric of the world was at stake if the banks were not bailed out.  Opposition to the bill ran around 99%.  It passed.
3. The judicial system is not responsible for carrying out the will of the people.  In theory, its sole job of its rulings is to reconcile laws with the Constitution and with accepted law.

Also, note that after a lower judge rules, his or her ruling stands unless some flaw can be found.  In other words, the chance of an overturn on appeal is not that great.  So just because the SCOTUS did not rule does not mean that the lower court's verdict cannot stand on its own.




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