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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 10:39:36 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Tazzy, you had asked on the other thread about him being a Marxist. I ran across a passage from Rules for Radicals that addresses ideology, above that great quote about intellectual constipation in the Wiki piece.

An organizer working in and for an open society is in an ideological dilemma. To begin with, he does not have a fixed truth--truth to him is relative and changing, everything to him is relative and changing. He is a political relativist. He accepts the late Justice Learned Hand's statement that "the mark of a free man is that ever-gnawing inner uncertainty as to whether or not he is right." The consequence is that he is ever on the hunt for the causes of man's plight and the general propositions that help to make some sense out of man's irrational world. He must constantly examine life, including his own, to get some idea of what it about, and he must challenge and test his own findings. Irreverence, essential to questioning, is a requisite. Curiosity becomes compulsive. His most frequent word is "why?"



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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 1:55:20 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Well, Panda, I disagree regarding his significance and influence, and the connections between his teachings and legacy, and our President, pretty well guarantee he is going to be talked about.


As long as there are idiots blathering on the radio, and bigger idiots listening to their lunacy and whipping each other into a frenzy over it, yeah - he probably is going to be talked about. By a lot of people who have absolutely no clue what they're talking about.

Nobody who knows you is ever going to confuse you with an idiot, but with all due respect, you are an example of someone who doesn't seem to know anything about Saul Alinsky other than what he's heard from these idiot Beckheads. And you're helping their cause by helping them spread their paranoid, delusional, and just plain dishonest superstitions about Alinsky. No offense, but I don't think you know what you're talking about here.

I, on the other hand, do. I worked for most of the 1990s as a community organizer for several inner-city non-profits, and while I never had the pleasure of meeting Saul (on account of him being dead), I did work closely with a number of people who had known him, and some of whom worked with him. In addition, I attended and even taught at seminars and workshops around the United States over the years, and had many opportunities to meet and chat with people who had known Saul quite well.

And not a single one of those people consider him to have been anywhere near as influential as you guys all seem to think he was - at least, not in the way you guys whisper to each other around your campfires. Every organizer I ever met found their inspiration in Saul's passion and dedication, in his organizational genius, his brilliance at identifying and clarifying issues. Every single successful organizer I knew considered Alinsky a bit of an anachronism, a man whose philosophy and methods may have been a good fit for his particular moment in history, but whose more radical tactics were generally not effective or practical on a larger scale in today's world.

Any young organizer coming into the field and attempting to model himself after the Alinsky of the 40s and 50s would have a very short tenure in any community non-profit I ever saw, because nobody - including his co-workers - would trust him or respect him. He just wouldn't be effective at his job. Successful grass-roots organizing is about building coalitions, confederations, and partnerships across the cultural, racial, and economic boundaries in a community. It's not about dividing and sowing resentment and bitterness. That wedge may have been an effective tool a half century ago, but people have learned that it doesn't build lasting results. And anyone who seriously believes that the divisive aspects of Saul Alinsky have any significant influence on the politics of today's America simply doesn't know what they're talking about.




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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 3:11:04 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		And yet those rules he spelled out keep cropping up and even becoming mainstream, don't they, Panda? One specifically comes to mind, targeting individuals directly, rather than organizations at large, is standard practice. It seems more prevalent from the left than the right, but tactics don't have partisan restrictions. It's not the Tea-Party, but Dick Armey, or the Koch's, or that awful Bachman woman. Note how Ron has frozen a certain congressman, with his foot forever tapping, as the personalization of Republicans, and does this while happily agreeing that Alinsky had mighty flexible ethics.

He points out in "Rules" that the struggle is not an interminable climb, but a series of plateaus, each different from the last. How a teacher of such philosophies is appreciated in a (generally) level period, and how his words will be seen the next time the path gets steep are liable to be very different.

I suspect there is also a bit of the politically correct mindset in play. The guy gave Lucifer a shout-out on the dedication page, as the first radical, who at least gained his own kingdom. Maybe not so bright to sing his praises before asking people to open the wallets, huh? Especially when the voices of the Have-nots have often found themselves becoming Have-a-littles.

C'mon. Saul would wholeheartedly endorse being denounced, if that moved things forward. We don't find many folks coming out and endorsing the ideas in "The Prince" either, but damn if everybody hasn't read it

Now, is he being turned into more of a bogeyman than he ever was? Of course. Hence a thread for civil discussion, so people who are actually curious can get some further information. Thank you for contributing to it, Panda.

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 10:04:54 PM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		I will grant you that Alinsky was a left-wing theoretician, but in all honesty can you claim that his tactics have not been adopted by every party....isn't Rove an Alinsky disciple of the highest degree?

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 10:23:45 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Arpig, picking up a rock and hitting the other guy in the head with it is a tactic, and not restricted to any ideology (though pacifists probably wouldn't go there). His rules were for radicals, and those come from across our political spectrum. He may have worked among what passes for the left in the USA, but his teachings have spread far wider.

I was just reading your "affiliation" thread, and wondering if I should mention the "all the angels on one side - all the demons on the other" in response to your OP, and had decided it would come across a shameless plug for this thread.



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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 10:25:18 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Considering some of the cases he took on, wouldnt someone need to be radical to a point?

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 10:38:04 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Arpig, picking up a rock and hitting the other guy in the head with it is a tactic, and not restricted to any ideology (though pacifists probably wouldn't go there). His rules were for radicals, and those come from across our political spectrum. He may have worked among what passes for the left in the USA, but his teachings have spread far wider.



But see, that's just the point - the point that seems to be escaping everyone in this thread, left and right. You all seem to be regarding him as some sort of Jesus, a Mohamed who emerged from the desert to teach mankind something they'd never even imagined before, or could have conceived of had he not shown us the light.

The truth of the matter is, Saul Alinsky never had an original thought in his life. Alinsky wasn't the guy who first created these tactics or this philosophy; he just happened to be a guy who put it all down in a book. I don't understand why so many of you don't seem to get that. You're giving him far, far too much credit.


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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 10:53:40 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		I read something that stated people had went to an "Alinsky" style seminar. How they had to sit in teh audience and call out numbers in order from 1 - 7. Depending on the number someone called out, they were then instructed to go to different parts of the room to meet with others that called out the same number. The author was insulted because they could no longer sit with their friends and had to interact with strangers, and felt intimitated by the process.

This all confused me a great deal. Why would someone want to be in a brainstorming group with friends who you knew thought like you did? As I told Rich in another thread, what I am reading doesnt sound like an evil, twisted plot...

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 11:02:50 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Machiavelli didn't invent anything either, Panda, but when we desribe the political theory that it is best not to oppress a population, but if you do to be completely ruthless about it, his is the name we hang on the idea.



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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 11:28:29 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Machiavelli didn't invent anything either, Panda, but when we desribe the political theory that it is best not to oppress a population, but if you do to be completely ruthless about it, his is the name we hang on the idea.




Yeah, that's a good point. You're right.

I guess the reason this issue grates on me so much is that on a lot of levels, the argument exemplifies the Neanderthal-Cons' penchant for deliberately mischaracterizing some liberals in order to make it easier to demonize them and blame them for imaginary problems. It's irritating and exasperating to me, and I get my hackles up whenever it happens. This "Run for your lives, here comes Saul Alinsky!!!" thing is a complete smoke screen perpetrated by Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. There's nothing there, and never has been, but those blathering, bleating, blowhard gasbags on the right wing radio stations have been banging this same damned drum every 5 minutes for months, and it's gone way beyond the point of absurdity. This is just another excuse for Rush and his republican minions to avoid addressing real issues.


< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 2/26/2011 11:30:17 PM >

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/27/2011 12:40:13 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

Again, making an even playing field is bad?
yes tazzy...of course it is evil...you are proposing we take power from those who hold it illicitly and return it to those who are supposed to hold it....very radical idea

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/27/2011 12:43:11 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

There can be no common ground. The bad guy must be utterly bad, and when you have nothing else at all, resort to constant mockery.

Gee. Sound like anybody you know?
Yeah actually....sounds a lot to me like what most the republicans/tea party types espouse,,,,sorry but if the shoe fits

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/27/2011 12:45:37 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

God, you must really be old then.



You don't have that old people smell do you?

Because I really hate that.
You really are an asshole RML, deeply and truly so

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/27/2011 4:19:43 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

God, you must really be old then.



You don't have that old people smell do you?

Because I really hate that.
You really are an asshole RML, deeply and truly so


I can't help you Arpig.

That just happens I guess when the gray hairs start to show up in your beard.

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/27/2011 5:49:49 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I read something that stated people had went to an "Alinsky" style seminar. How they had to sit in teh audience and call out numbers in order from 1 - 7. Depending on the number someone called out, they were then instructed to go to different parts of the room to meet with others that called out the same number. The author was insulted because they could no longer sit with their friends and had to interact with strangers, and felt intimitated by the process.

This all confused me a great deal. Why would someone want to be in a brainstorming group with friends who you knew thought like you did? As I told Rich in another thread, what I am reading doesnt sound like an evil, twisted plot...


Who knew that the way my elementary gym teacher formed teams and my junior high teachers formed discussion groups had the basis in something so sinister...

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/27/2011 12:26:28 PM   
luckydawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I read something that stated people had went to an "Alinsky" style seminar. How they had to sit in teh audience and call out numbers in order from 1 - 7. Depending on the number someone called out, they were then instructed to go to different parts of the room to meet with others that called out the same number. The author was insulted because they could no longer sit with their friends and had to interact with strangers, and felt intimitated by the process.

This all confused me a great deal. Why would someone want to be in a brainstorming group with friends who you knew thought like you did? As I told Rich in another thread, what I am reading doesnt sound like an evil, twisted plot...



What are you reading? It is entirely possible to write about Stalin, and leave out all the deaths and the deal with Hitler. I am sure uncle Joe had a nice dinner with friends every now and then, perhaps caught an opera.

Alinsky is a hero to many so an approving book isn't a far fetched idea.


---or---

Was it really a brainstorming group,


or was it lesson in how to take a gathering, and manage it so some people were intimidated and marginalized by the process?

For instance, a bloc that knew ahead of time to space out at every 7, so they had a solid orginized bloc while everyone else was disorginized and had to play catch up?

Perhaps even a planted disrupter in the other 6 groups?


Which would be an Alinsky type tactic.

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/27/2011 12:48:49 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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Status: offline 		What??!??!?

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/27/2011 12:58:25 PM   
luckydawg


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"What?!?!?!!??"

That's not really a constructive response.

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/27/2011 1:02:13 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		I think Panda was looking for some foundation in Alinsky advocating the tactics you describe, Lucky. Now obviously, Alinsky's ethical rationalizations could encompass any dirty trick an agitator could come up with, but my suspicion was that Panda was looking for a more "rules" based footing.

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/27/2011 1:08:27 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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Status: offline 		I give up. You guys sound like a bunch of hoods in "The Usual Suspects" scaring each other with ghost stories about Keyser Soze. The comedic value of this thread is no longer enough to warrant the waste of time. Have fun, and be sure and let the rest of us know if you decide that Saul Alinsky is really the anti-christ and he's actually alive and living in the basement of the White House. 

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