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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/2/2011 7:17:04 AM

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FR

I was going to comment but damn, so many have already said some damned good stuff...........they left me with nothing but a lot of dittos!

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/2/2011 10:13:23 AM

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I can tell you that where I come from, a “strong slave” is a positive attribute.
You have to be emotionally strong and durable to survive in my world.
You have to be mentally strong and creative enough to contribute to the relationship.
You have to physically strong and healthy enough to help raise a family.

Who would want a weak slave?

Funny how a “strong submissive” evokes so many negative connotations.

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/2/2011 10:46:19 AM

Kana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I can tell you that where I come from, a “strong slave” is a positive attribute.
You have to be emotionally strong and durable to survive in my world.
You have to be mentally strong and creative enough to contribute to the relationship.
You have to physically strong and healthy enough to help raise a family.

Who would want a weak slave?

Funny how a “strong submissive” evokes so many negative connotations.

I said, can I get an "Amen" brother.

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/2/2011 10:49:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Now Celeste, you know doggone well that a True Dominant would order a True Submissive to make the heart murmer stop, and it would stop! Shame on you for your lack of faith.

sunshine

Sunny, you been traveling? Haven't seen you post in ages!

I'm just stating that healthy and strong are not synonymous. There are strong high school football players with high cholesterol levels or a weak ankle. There are people walking with canes who are healthy but not strong.

The problem I'm seeing here is that people believe the two words mean the same. I'm not good at decision making. I make good decisions but it takes a lot of energy from me. He does it faster and easier and I have rarely disagreed with any of his. More importantly, I don't consider the effect of decisions on myself only on how to make ones that work for everyone else no matter the cost to me. One of his top criteria is the effect of stuff on me. It is healthy for me to acknowledge my weaknesses and pick a partner who excels where I don't. Who has my back, so to speak.

Because if I could do it all myself, why would I turn it all over? Just because it makes me wet? That's a reason for bedroom submission in my book, but not a good enough one to turn over control of children, house decisions, financial decisions etc.

When I have disagreed with him it's because I'm privy to info that he's been told about but never experienced so he doesn't put enough weight on to avoid the subsequent problem.

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/2/2011 12:55:26 PM

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The problem with discussing a topic like this lies in the judgments, personal and societal that we make about certain words.

Strength is a very tricky word.

There are many ways of being strong… many ways which some people can never recognize or even notice.

I think the idea of using a word like strong next to a word like submissive must be to sort of try and imply a kind of oxymoronic attention-grablike reaction.

Everyone is strong in some way or another or they would no longer be here… and I do not mean solely in the realms of BDSM.

People are strong in a myriad of ways, depending upon how they are wired.

I have known many a ‘doormat’ slave with an intestinal fortitude I wouldn’t mind having even a sliver of. However, we judge and perceive via our own comfortably acceptable definitions of words.

I also have seen the weakness in many a very ‘strong’ person, Dom and submissive, and of course know my own.

Every submissive is strong, and every dominant is weak, in some way or another. If you cannot grasp that about yourself and others… well grasshopper….

:)

(Oh good lord!! feel my freakin' zen! hehe)

< Message edited by puella -- 3/2/2011 12:56:58 PM >

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/2/2011 1:19:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

There are many ways of being strong… many ways which some people can never recognize or even notice.

Everyone is strong in some way or another or they would no longer be here… and I do not mean solely in the realms of BDSM.

I have known many a ‘doormat’ slave with an intestinal fortitude I wouldn’t mind having even a sliver of. However, we judge and perceive via our own comfortably acceptable definitions of words.

I also have seen the weakness in many a very ‘strong’ person, Dom and submissive, and of course know my own.

Every submissive is strong, and every dominant is weak, in some way or another. If you cannot grasp that about yourself and others… well grasshopper….

I think you summed the whole thing up rather nicely, Zen and all. It's so good to read you. Well stated! :)

Namaste,

~porcelaine

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/2/2011 3:26:05 PM

agirl

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Well, I'm an *agirl*. And I'm almost every adjective going. I wouldn't pick strong to describe myself .....but then , I wouldn't pick submissive either:)

I'd feel I'd sold myself short if I was doing so with *strong*.

agirl

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/2/2011 3:43:31 PM

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Why?

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War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/2/2011 5:53:34 PM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Why?

Because it'd be focussing on one thing, and not the myriad of other things that I also am, that's why. Plus, without saying WHAT I think I'm strong about/with, it has no meaning at all. (as I said before)

agirl

< Message edited by agirl -- 3/2/2011 5:54:39 PM >

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/2/2011 6:20:55 PM

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^^ i can so totally agree with agirl on the above.
wonderfully said. ^.^

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/2/2011 9:02:47 PM

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In my world being a "submissive" is a state that you have in relation to another person. If that other person accepts the characteristics of the submissive whether it be strong, agressive, assertive or just flat out bitch, isn't it actually being "opinionated" to judge that?

I don't think it's ever safe to judge other people's personality traits by our own standards for ourselves and I believe your question does just that. I use the word strong, I see that as a positive word personally and there's only one person in the world other than myself who should judge how that relates to my submissiveness.

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/2/2011 9:23:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I don't think it's ever safe to judge other people's personality traits by our own standards for ourselves

That's like saying loud racists aren't so because their partners put up with them.

The issue isn't that "strong submissive" don't or or shouldn't have partners or that they can't be in mutually fulfilling relationships with dominants who choose to permit certain types of behavior or certain types of mindsets.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 3/2/2011 9:24:17 PM >

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/2/2011 10:33:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I don't think it's ever safe to judge other people's personality traits by our own standards for ourselves and I believe your question does just that. I use the word strong, I see that as a positive word personally and there's only one person in the world other than myself who should judge how that relates to my submissiveness.

Great to see you Laurell. :)

Something came to mind when I read your response. We're apt to apply our definition without ever considering if the supposed negative is actually a gain for the other party. Maybe the individual wasn't as strong in the past and can finally identify with that through hard work. Or in my case I went in the opposite direction. I can only chuckle when someone disparages a doormat or considers them weak when I'm well aware of my toolbox. I just feel at home elsewhere. In my opinion the individual will have far more information as to why a descriptor fits than the observer would possess. It's a pity we're unwilling to accept it.

Namaste,

~porcelaine

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/4/2011 5:05:17 PM

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I think the reasons that "Submissive" and "Strong" might be terms which are considered to be mutually exclusive are based in how those terms are interpreted in the general culture, and have no bearing on how we use the term submissive, or what we consider to be strength."Generally speaking" many people see dominance as strong, and submission as weak. We know better here. Or we should. Unfortunately, sometimes general cultural influences can be insidious, and seep into places where they really aren't generally applicable, such as in BDSM.

I personally wouldn't want anyone else but someone whom I considered to be a strong submissive. By strong, I mean a responsible, trustworthy person who can take care of himself in the outside world, has enough of a modicom of self awareness concerning his own issues, and is submitting by choice.

What I wouldn't want would be a person who couldn't behave as a responsible adult, had no self awareness, and wanted me to "fix" all of his problems. That's not a Domme, that's a therapist. And while D/s can be very therapeutic, I'm not a therapist.

edited for spelling

< Message edited by LadyRian -- 3/4/2011 5:07:30 PM >

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/5/2011 8:35:13 AM

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I don't really agree with the hypothesis... or... perhaps I agree with half of it.

I would say that the US culture doesn't do well with hierarchy in any context. When we DO choose to look at it, the only slot we care about is "#1". So yeah, the larger culture has some serious issues with the topic. But in my opinion, how "we" look at it is no different. I think the cultural baggage surrounding the words "dominant" and "submissive" is alive and well in BDSM-land.

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/5/2011 9:06:40 AM

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as a slave i have many strengths or abilitys i am in charge in my military life and as a nurse i am nuturing i am physicaly strong. it can also be said that i am strongly a slave refering to my not being a switch or top. i do try hard and sometimes i try to hard and get over eager

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/6/2011 9:33:52 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyRian

I think the reasons that "Submissive" and "Strong" might be terms which are considered to be mutually exclusive are based in how those terms are interpreted in the general culture, and have no bearing on how we use the term submissive, or what we consider to be strength.

"Generally speaking" many people see dominance as strong, and submission as weak. We know better here. Or we should. Unfortunately, sometimes general cultural influences can be insidious, and seep into places where they really aren't generally applicable, such as in BDSM.

I personally wouldn't want anyone else but someone whom I considered to be a strong submissive. By strong, I mean a responsible, trustworthy person who can take care of himself in the outside world, has enough of a modicom of self awareness concerning his own issues, and is submitting by choice.

What I wouldn't want would be a person who couldn't behave as a responsible adult, had no self awareness, and wanted me to "fix" all of his problems. That's not a Domme, that's a therapist. And while D/s can be very therapeutic, I'm not a therapist.

edited for spelling

I agree to a large degree.

**By strong, I mean a responsible, trustworthy person who can take care of himself in the outside world, has enough of a modicom of self awareness concerning his own issues, and is submitting by choice. **

I'm trustworthy enough to have *days off* when I'm a feckin' nightmare and have an Owner that has a large enough *shrug factor* along with a spiteful nylon cane, that tends to get the balance just right again.

I'm here by choice *re: comment above*. I wasn't bullied, in love, in great need or desire. I had enormous respect.....not quite as dramatic or romantic :)

I do tend to expect M to be largely *better* than me, I can mange to fumble along well enough on my own, but my life will always contain, at least, a little outrageousness.

HE is stronger than me in tons of ways, That is just a fact, not some massive big accolade. There follows a short period of time where I get re-aquainted with the fact :)

Basically there's only one boss, when you both know who it is, it can be uncomfy, it can be difficult........but you both know who it is.

agirl

< Message edited by agirl -- 3/6/2011 9:44:29 AM >

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RE: "strong submissive"? - 3/6/2011 12:14:03 PM

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Maybe this has been said already by someone else (maybe even more eloquently), but like anyone else I presume my two cents will ultimately improve this thread. :P

Personalities are who people are; they're unique. I would wager that would make submission and dominance unique to the individual, and therefore the particular relationship between two people, et cetera and so forth. My example would be myself: I'm assertive and confident. I hold my own amongst peers and expect them to do the same; we're equals and there's a respect present. I in no way consider that to conflict with my submissive nature, nor do I think it disrespectful to my dominant (though I do have a tendency to put my foot in my mouth sometimes). I push, pull, give, and get; I expect my dominant to correct behaviors he finds unsatisfactory (whether I'm aware of those behaviors or not), but I wouldn't expect him to not want me to be me.

I'd like to think a dominant would go for someone he or she likes in every facet rather than a generic thing to be turned into what he or she wanted. Improving and polishing something already pleasant, you know?

Edit: I had more to say and I didn't even get to it; silly me.

Conversely, the strong sub boast reminds me of, not to be geeky, the girl gamer thing. Girls made such a big deal of people not being required to make a big deal about girl video gamers. "I'm a girl gamer! It's not a big deal! Hey! I'm a girl! Stop making a big deal about it, geez!" I'm lead to believe those who announce such things think of themselves as an unusual and unique thing which, while trying to seem humble, they want to boast. "I'm not like the others; I'm special!" And so on.

Of course, not everyone is like this, but stereotypes happen. This is what comes to mind for me.

< Message edited by vegetablelamb -- 3/6/2011 12:21:35 PM >

(in reply to agirl)

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