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Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/7/2011 8:02:31 AM

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From: Tamaris
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I am just wondering with the news that NASA has announced that a huge space storm is heading our way, what the effect will be on the climate, bearing in mind our electronic stuff could take a hit. I believe this is part of a ramp up of solar activity coming from the sun with the recent filming of a large solar flare, of course it is my belief that the sun is responsible for much of what happens on Earth, so why not the weather.

Space storm coming our way

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RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/7/2011 8:03:59 AM

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i remember hearing about the potential for problems relating to solar flares; it'll be interesting to see what happens.
thanks for the link ^_^

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RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/7/2011 8:07:43 AM

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Why single out NASA? There's quite a few observatories who are worried about the effects of this.

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RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/7/2011 9:04:50 AM

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It was where i picked up the news via my usual morning perusal of the world's doom and gloom.

But the weather, that thing that we are told and some notice is changing world wide, not warming, not cooling but changing, like everything does.

I read elsewhere the polar ice caps on Mars are melting, just like they are here, the common factor in both, is the sun.

The sun controls the weather and from my high school meteorology lessons , if I remember rightly;

The sun creates the winds by heating air to be replaced by cool air and the resulting turbulence of the action creates air movement we call winds, the sun warming water in the Equatorial areas gives rise to Hurricanes, air heated by the sun is known as a warm front, it hits a cold front, weather happens etc etc.

So, what are we doing to sun to cause the global changes that has everyone running around like a headless chicken saying we have got to stop.

But it will be interesting to see the changes if any regarding this space storm, and I await the headless chicken religion trying to explain it.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/7/2011 9:28:13 AM

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Aneirin, don't worry, the global warmers will be in here soon enough, the propellers on their beanies whirling around at full speed.

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RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/7/2011 9:30:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

It was where i picked up the news via my usual morning perusal of the world's doom and gloom.

But the weather, that thing that we are told and some notice is changing world wide, not warming, not cooling but changing, like everything does.

I read elsewhere the polar ice caps on Mars are melting, just like they are here, the common factor in both, is the sun.

The sun controls the weather and from my high school meteorology lessons , if I remember rightly;

The sun creates the winds by heating air to be replaced by cool air and the resulting turbulence of the action creates air movement we call winds, the sun warming water in the Equatorial areas gives rise to Hurricanes, air heated by the sun is known as a warm front, it hits a cold front, weather happens etc etc.

So, what are we doing to sun to cause the global changes that has everyone running around like a headless chicken saying we have got to stop.

But it will be interesting to see the changes if any regarding this space storm, and I await the headless chicken religion trying to explain it.

Anerin, your HS meterology classes were oversimplified.

Solar storms have VERY little to do with climate. Solar storms are simply charged particles. They play hell with unshielded satellites and electromagnetic communications but they dont cause so much as a rain shower here.

As for the polar ice caps on mars melting, well, they do that about every 2 years. it's called seasons and as they are primarily made of Dry Ice (the Southern one especially) they act a bit differently from water.

Your comment about what are we doing to the sun to cause global changes is either deliberate snarkiness or gross ignorance. I chose to assume the former.

In the best of possible worlds, scientific decisions would be made by scientists and not a bunch of people (Gore, Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, etc) who have agendas and are willing to outright lie to people to promote said agendas.

If you have questions, My postgraduate courses on MPO (Meterology and Physical Oceanography) have hopefully given me the knowledge to be of assistance.

(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/7/2011 9:31:23 AM

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The main worry about solar flares is them disrupting the electricity grid and the phone network, I think. There were problems with the telegraph network the last time there was a really big outbreak like this a century or so back, supposedly.

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(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/7/2011 9:43:13 AM

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it isn't an "either/or" situation -- human activity contributes to warming here on earth due to the overproduction of greenhouse gases (duh) -- we know how greenhouse gases work.
we contribute to it/ accelerate it -- we are not the sole cause.
but anti-global warming people will always talk in "either/or" to bolster their own positions.

the sun is the originator of heat, yes, but many weather currents are affected by the ocean -- the salinity of water matters, and as the ice caps melt (melt on Mars tends to happen to one pole at a time, here on earth, both poles are melting pretty rapidly), the salinity of the ocean decreases, which changes the currents that carry weather to different parts of the world (DUH again). Mars has no free-flowing one that's hugely involved in climate, like Earth has and its temperature is more influenced from the outside, so any external thing can cause temperatures on Mars to rise. Mars is pretty different from Earth; it's kinda silly to base conclusions on a planet so extremely different (sure there are similarities, but the lack of an ocean is PRETTY major), especially when we have so little empirical data in regards to Martian climate trends.

something certainly is happening to the sun that is causing all of the planets in our solar system to warm up. but to say we aren't contributing at all -- i still consider that very short sighted.

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RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/7/2011 10:08:08 AM

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It "can't" be solar activity that causes "global warming" (or whatever they're calling it this week, and it's only monday.) how could anyone make any money off it if is was?
That would be an absolute. They wouldn't be able to use the terms, "could have", "might have" "may", "possably", "should", "might," "likely", "probable," etc, etc, etc.
Boy, if you simply ignore anything that disagrees with your philosophy or simply hide it then there's a lot of room to play in there!
And the ultimate goal is to grab as much of the U.S. Taxpayer's money as possable.
You don't see the U.N. going after third world countries.
Like they say, a good detective always follows the money.

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RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/7/2011 10:21:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

It "can't" be solar activity that causes "global warming" (or whatever they're calling it this week, and it's only monday.) how could anyone make any money off it if is was?
That would be an absolute. They wouldn't be able to use the terms, "could have", "might have" "may", "possably", "should", "might," "likely", "probable," etc, etc, etc.
Boy, if you simply ignore anything that disagrees with your philosophy or simply hide it then there's a lot of room to play in there!
And the ultimate goal is to grab as much of the U.S. Taxpayer's money as possable.
You don't see the U.N. going after third world countries.
Like they say, a good detective always follows the money.

Too bad you're not a good detective.

(in reply to popeye1250)

RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/7/2011 10:26:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Like they say, a good detective always follows the money.

Let's take this advice, where is the overwhelming majority of money being spent on climate change? The denialists funded by the fossil fuel industry. That is the only reason there is still any discussion of the matter. The science is completely settled and has been for 5 or 6 years.

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RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/7/2011 6:33:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Like they say, a good detective always follows the money.

Let's take this advice, where is the overwhelming majority of money being spent on climate change? The denialists funded by the fossil fuel industry. That is the only reason there is still any discussion of the matter. The science is completely settled and has been for 5 or 6 years.

Actually, when I was an undergrad in the '70's it was pretty well established. It only became contriversial when the oil companies realized it would cost them profits.

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RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/7/2011 7:01:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Like they say, a good detective always follows the money.

Let's take this advice, where is the overwhelming majority of money being spent on climate change? The denialists funded by the fossil fuel industry. That is the only reason there is still any discussion of the matter. The science is completely settled and has been for 5 or 6 years.

Actually, when I was an undergrad in the '70's it was pretty well established. It only became contriversial when the oil companies realized it would cost them profits.

Exactly.
"In the 1970s there was increasing awareness that estimates of global temperatures showed cooling since 1945. Of those scientific papers considering climate trends over the 21st century, only 10% inclined towards future cooling, while most papers predicted future warming.[2] The general public had little awareness of carbon dioxide's effects on climate, but Science News in May 1959 forecast a 25% increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide in the 150 years from 1850 to 2000, with a consequent warming trend.[3] The actual increase in this period was 29%. Paul R. Ehrlich mentioned climate change from greenhouse gases in 1968.[4] By the time the idea of global cooling reached the public press in the mid-1970s temperatures had stopped falling, and there was concern in the climatological community about carbon dioxide's warming effects.[5] In response to such reports, the World Meteorological Organization issued a warning in June 1976 that a very significant warming of global climate was probable.[6]" Wikipedia

It was actually the Time magazine article of June 24, 1974, and the Newsweek article of April 25, 1975, that popularized the erroneous idea of "Global Cooling" But of course the mouthbreathers of the right latched on to the Big Lie like a cat with a sock full of catnip.

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RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/8/2011 12:59:54 AM

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Fuck the damn temperature, this is going to fuck with YOUR PHONE ! ( maybe even your CABLE ! ).

What these things actually do is to increase the charge of the ionosphere, which makes it reflect more radio waves. This actually will help shortwave stations, as they depend on a phenomenon called skip to propogate around the world. However too much skip can cause serious multipath problems, that is two or more signals arriving at you antenna just slightly out of time because one was reflected and one was direct, or of two reflacted signals one went for a longer ride. Even at the speed of light these things matter.

Now I am so fucking old that I remember when cellular went from 890 channels to about 2,100. There are millions now. But they use digital encoding which in and of itself is a form of encryption, and sometimes spread spectrum, which uses many channels simultaneously. This is the problem.

With digital, there is a check code in the data to tell the reciever there is an error, the reciever then turns on the transmitter and the original transmitter gets the code that it was not recived properly. The original transmitter then resends the original data. This all amounts to processing and propogation time. With the most advanced technology now, expect a bit longer delay on a phone call. Ever call yourself on a cellphone ? I have. The delay in the transmission, or actual the reception is not caused by the speed of light. It is usually caused by errors, noise and data collisions. To reconstruct the words you speak into a cell phone, it has to have them all right ?

This is going to slow down all modern communications, and IRONICALLY ( you remember my penchant for irony right ? ) it will not have as an adverse effect on regular old style radio. Sure AM and SW bands might sound a bit weirder than usual, but they can probably be made intelligible somehow. But once a digital signal is scrambled by this beyond it's CRCC's capabilities, propogation limits and the processing power of the trancievers, you are F U C K E D.

[CRCC stands for Cyclic Redundancy Check Code, the basis for most error correction to this day, but with more complex implementation now]

T^T

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RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/10/2011 12:32:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
To reconstruct the words you speak into a cell phone, it has to have them all right ?

So if I talk slower, there will be more delay? I'm going to toss a theory out there that the delay is caused more by packetization and IP hops. Just a theory though.. Needing all the words is still possible.

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RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/10/2011 2:00:43 AM

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No your right (not about talking slower lol). But no matter where the signal goes it is going to be hit with more errors and error correction takes time. It might only be a millisecond, but it happens many times. What's more strangley, I have two computers and I can put them on the same streaming program and they will come out out of time. This is on the same network with the same internet connection. And I know this thing does about four megs. Three PCs all on speed test simultaneously, getting 1.3, 1.3 and 1.2. I have no idea why, unless it's prcessor load. That doesn't make sense because sometimes the older one is ahead on a stream. It also has less RAM.

Digital is funny, it needs to stay in sync or it all turns to noise. It adapts, when erors are encountered it might change the speed, if that doesn't work it has to go with redundancy I guess. All this makes a mess when you get a signal with a bunch of multipath. Multipath is what used to cause ghosts in TV pictures in the analog days. A snowy picture due to a weak signal is actually alot easier to handle. Now multipath causes pixelization or freezing because the data are too scrambled, it can't sync in. Like the TV picture that would bend around. Same deal.

T^T

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RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/10/2011 4:33:02 AM

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One of the biggest solar storms recently was in 1989, and the disruption to the power grid took down Hydro-Quebec. It also caused some very expensive transformer damage at utilities in the NE to mid-Atlantic states, due to ground induced currents. (GICs are worst over igneous materials.)

Now they can take a few precautions to prevent GICs from triggering inadvertent shutdowns.

For more info, crank up www.swpc.noaa.gov. If you're interested in the effects on radio propagation, try this site: www.swpc.noaa.gov/drap/index.html

(in reply to Termyn8or)

RE: Nasa warns of space storm coming our way - 3/10/2011 6:35:29 AM

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From: Tamaris
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Bring back analogue !

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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