RE: When does life begin? (Full Version)

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TheShrew -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 1:41:03 AM)

Please, do not jump my butt for this opinion. {because entry 7 of this thread says "define it according to your belief" ...}
 
when does Human life begin?
I would go with "about 6 weeks."

Why do you believe so?
With exception to massive strokes and/or head trauma which renders a person clinically brain dead, most people accept the end of life as the moment the heart stops beating, forever.
If the end of life is when the heart stops beating, it stands to reason the beginning of life could be when the heart starts beating.
The partitioning of a fetal heart begins at 4 weeks, a heartbeat can be detected at 5 weeks {although not with an ultrasound until about 10 weeks} and the fetal heart is fully formed and functioning in it's gestational state by 6 weeks.
 



hlen5 -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 1:50:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

If you look at an acorn.. do you say... "Thats an acorn"? Or "thats an oak tree"?


Ding!!!



outhere69 -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 4:42:46 AM)

Physiologically, pregnancy begins at implantation, not conception. 

Reproductive physiology have found that there are a lot of things working against a pregnancy going to term and a lot of pregnancies go wrong very early, probably due to genetic effects (it was in Discover magazine about...6 years ago or so?)

You can have a fetus with fatal defects of the heart or brain that are fine until birthed, since the mother is the only thing keeping it alive.  We don't give social security cards to embryos or fetuses; under law they don't constitute a person until they are a separate being.  It's possible for premies to survive early in the 3rd trimester (though their will be a range of side effects), so it seems that Roe v Wade's trimester system works well IMHO (no, there is no abortion on demand for the third trimester).

As for souls, that's a religious point of view.  A matter of a particular faith - and whose faith counts?  If a soul exists at conception, who's responsible when the conception fails, and why would that particular god waste a soul?



tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 5:20:48 AM)

quote:

With exception to massive strokes and/or head trauma which renders a person clinically brain dead, most people accept the end of life as the moment the heart stops beating, forever.
If the end of life is when the heart stops beating, it stands to reason the beginning of life could be when the heart starts beating.


I can see your point. And its a good one. Where does the ability to survive outside of utero come into play?



Aylee -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 6:17:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Must paternity be established first? I know its a bit off topic, im just curious about that.


I am not being an ass, but you will have to go ask a Rabbi. It used to be that the husband and father were the same person. So I am not sure how out-of-wedlock births would be treated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

In Judaism a fetus becomes a legal person with rights and a soul when it crowns. Up until this point abortion or doing something to cause a woman to loose a fetus is not murder. It is only damage, like cutting off an arm. However, a fetus does have some limited rights such as inheritance.



the word "person" is a commercial word. for instance the king or socereign is not considered to be a person!

Persons have rights and duties ascribed to them!

"People" are considered in america to be the sovereigns...




And this has exactly WHAT to do with Judaic law? Nothing.



tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 6:19:00 AM)

I dont take your reply as "being an ass". Makes sense to me to ask a Rabbi. Or maybe DarkSteven knows.



TheShrew -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 8:06:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheShrew
With exception to massive strokes and/or head trauma which renders a person clinically brain dead, most people accept the end of life as the moment the heart stops beating, forever.
If the end of life is when the heart stops beating, it stands to reason the beginning of life could be when the heart starts beating. 

tazzygirl
I can see your point. And its a good one. Where does the ability to survive outside of utero come into play?

For those who are holding the viability/survivability/sentient stance .. they are correct in saying sometimes a fetus can sustain itself outside the womb at 22 wks. {Although it's more likely to survive if born after 24 wks}
 
Based upon the initial question, my stance is that ... the ability to survive outside the womb does not come into play in this debate. The question was not "at what point in gestation can a fetus be prematurely delivered and survive" or "when does a fetus develop conscious awareness of itself and others/environment."  The question was "at what point does life begin?" In an attempt to direct this response at the original question, I'm sticking with my original answer of "around 6 weeks."



Aileen1968 -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 10:14:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
when does Human life begin?

A "fetus" becomes a "human being" at the point in time that it has a reasonable chance of surviving outside it's mother's womb.


To be absolutely specific:
i believe a fetus stops being a lump of human cells and starts being a "person" or "human being" at 22 weeks, or viability, because that's when it can survive without it's mother. i believe that's the first time it can be said to have a "self", instead of being a sort of growth within it's mother.

However, technically, it was alive before that, and had human DNA before that.

So:
It is alive
It is genetically human
But it only stops being a thing and starts being a person (with rights) when it can survive on it's own.

If the question is, what is the first point that it's both alive and human, the answer is at conception. If the question is, what is the first point that it's alive, human, and a enough of a person to be entitled to its own life? i believe the best answer to that question is, at viability.

So: human life begins at conception. Human beings begin at 22 weeks.

pam


I gave birth to my son at 21 weeks. Not only did he live for six hours, but he was a perfectly formed little baby.
There is no way anyone will ever convince me that because he was unable to sustain life at that age, that he wasn't a life and human.
I held a baby in my arms for those six hours. Not a fetus.

And...I have his death certificate and social security card filed away.



Aileen1968 -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 10:26:01 AM)

Fetal developement, week by week.



tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 11:03:51 AM)

quote:

The question was not "at what point in gestation can a fetus be prematurely delivered and survive" or "when does a fetus develop conscious awareness of itself and others/environment." The question was "at what point does life begin?" In an attempt to direct this response at the original question, I'm sticking with my original answer of "around 6 weeks."


At what point does HUMAN life begin... that was the original op.

So, just a beating heart makes a human life?
What about the brain, which is barely beginning to develop at 6 weeks?

A heart beat is defined as ...

heartbeat, a complete cycle of cardiac muscle contraction and relaxation.
Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 8th edition. © 2009, Elsevier

Basically, its an electrical impluse. What makes that "human"? By 6 weeks, the heart isnt fully formed.



Aileen1968 -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 11:22:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

So, just a beating heart makes a human life?
What about the brain, which is barely beginning to develop at 6 weeks?



If a functioning brain is required to define life, then half of the members of this site would be disqualified. [:D]



tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 11:27:31 AM)

rofl.... true!

But then we go off into another tangent... what is a fucntioning brain? What of those who are brain dead, yet have battles in courts on their behalf to keep them "alive".

Someone can remain alive for many, many years with only a brain stem... but are they "alive"?



MrRodgers -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 12:26:02 PM)

Kinkroids, metaphysics, religion and all of the rest aside. The easiest scientific demarcation of the existence of human (animal) life, begins...at conception.



TheShrew -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 1:05:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

The question was not "at what point in gestation can a fetus be prematurely delivered and survive" or "when does a fetus develop conscious awareness of itself and others/environment." The question was "at what point does life begin?" In an attempt to direct this response at the original question, I'm sticking with my original answer of "around 6 weeks."


At what point does HUMAN life begin... that was the original op.


Oh, got'cha. I'm sorry. I did not address that portion because it made me smile as I thought, "HUMAN life beings when 2 HUMANS successfully procreate. It isn't a pony or a puppy.. it's HUMAN. So I felt the only portion to address was the point at which it begins.



tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 1:23:34 PM)

when 2 HUMANS successfully procreate

You know we could farther with this, dont you? [:D]



tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 1:24:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Kinkroids, metaphysics, religion and all of the rest aside. The easiest scientific demarcation of the existence of human (animal) life, begins...at conception.


Then, based upon what you have just said... removing said human life is murder. Im not saying thats how I believe... but that is the moral assumption, yes?



divi -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 1:26:45 PM)

Tazzy you're so deep



tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 1:30:41 PM)

LOL

Thought you knew me better than that, divi! [;)]



willbeurdaddy -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 2:27:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheShrew

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheShrew
With exception to massive strokes and/or head trauma which renders a person clinically brain dead, most people accept the end of life as the moment the heart stops beating, forever.
If the end of life is when the heart stops beating, it stands to reason the beginning of life could be when the heart starts beating. 

tazzygirl
I can see your point. And its a good one. Where does the ability to survive outside of utero come into play?

For those who are holding the viability/survivability/sentient stance .. they are correct in saying sometimes a fetus can sustain itself outside the womb at 22 wks. {Although it's more likely to survive if born after 24 wks}
 
Based upon the initial question, my stance is that ... the ability to survive outside the womb does not come into play in this debate. The question was not "at what point in gestation can a fetus be prematurely delivered and survive" or "when does a fetus develop conscious awareness of itself and others/environment."  The question was "at what point does life begin?" In an attempt to direct this response at the original question, I'm sticking with my original answer of "around 6 weeks."


Any colour you like, since its all just opinion. Since the law of the land is centered around viability and that is certainly a defensible position, debating it is just mental masturbation until the issue comes before a court or legislation again.



gungadin09 -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 3:17:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
when does Human life begin?

A "fetus" becomes a "human being" at the point in time that it has a reasonable chance of surviving outside it's mother's womb.


To be absolutely specific:
i believe a fetus stops being a lump of human cells and starts being a "person" or "human being" at 22 weeks, or viability, because that's when it can survive without it's mother. i believe that's the first time it can be said to have a "self", instead of being a sort of growth within it's mother.

However, technically, it was alive before that, and had human DNA before that.

So:
It is alive
It is genetically human
But it only stops being a thing and starts being a person (with rights) when it can survive on it's own.

If the question is, what is the first point that it's both alive and human, the answer is at conception. If the question is, what is the first point that it's alive, human, and a enough of a person to be entitled to its own life? i believe the best answer to that question is, at viability.

So: human life begins at conception. Human beings begin at 22 weeks.

pam


I gave birth to my son at 21 weeks. Not only did he live for six hours, but he was a perfectly formed little baby.
There is no way anyone will ever convince me that because he was unable to sustain life at that age, that he wasn't a life and human.
I held a baby in my arms for those six hours. Not a fetus.

And...I have his death certificate and social security card filed away.


Aileen, i'm real sorry to hear that.




There's a marked difference in the language that the opposing sides use. That's the thing that most struck me as i was looking this stuff up. Pro-lifers say "when does life start?", and pro-choicers say "when is that life a human being?" To me, those are really two different questions. There is absolutely no doubt that a fetus is both alive AND human at conception. So, it seems to me that prolifers are really asking, not whether a fetus is alive (it is), and not whether is is human (it is, genetically) but whether it is a person, a human being.

If i understand it correctly, that is the language the Supreme Court used in the Roe vs Wade decision, that a fetus becomes a "human being" at the age of viability. Not that it becomes "human" at that point, but that it becomes a "human being", in other words, human and a "being"; it has a "self", it is it's own person and not an adjunct to it's mother, at that point.

i think it's unfortunate that the courts have to designate an exact point for the fetus to become a human being. i believe that it's a gross oversimplification to say that a fetus is fully a "human being" after a certain point and not at all before that. i believe that we become "human beings" gradually, as we develop from a single celled zygote into a person. However, in my opinion, viability is the still the best point in development to say "this is now a human being".



Aileen, i'm sorry for your loss. i had no intention to offend you.

pam



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